Thread: Tstops Blog: Sigma Classic Lenses - finally get to talk about them....

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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Lyons Collister, ASC View Post
    Not totally on topic but I have the regular Sigma Primes and I would so like something longer than 135mm. Anyone have inside knowledge about Sigma releasing longer primes in the near future?
    If you have the ability to use EF mount I might suggest their zooms. The 120-300mm f/2.8 is spectacular and would cut nicely with the cine lenses.
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Steinberg View Post
    A lens manufacturer creating LUT's? Is this what you're suggesting? I know you're well aware that no LUT can mimic the flaring and ghosting characteristics of vintage lenses. Colour and contrast, sure, but those other aberrations, no, and that is a big part of the appeal of the Classics.

    In my conversation with Kazuto Yamaki at NAB 2017 he asked me what the market is looking for, what they should develop next. I told him two things: uncoated optics and anamorphics, this is what our customers are asking for (at that time). Today you see where Sigma is heading. I think Sigma have a pretty good understanding of the industry today, they consult with a lot of partners globally, their mechanical execution may not be on par with the established brands but there is no doubt that they have knocked it out of the ball park with the initial Sigma Cine lenses. We'll see how well accepted the Classics perform. Judging by the immediate requests by DP's to test and even use on big budget TV series I think they will do quite well.
    Thank you for responding.
    Le me go one by one:
    Yes LUTs can mimic anything. We are not in analog world anymore. What we are looking at is a mosaic of points that have very well defined chroma and luma values. These are numbers. Not "organic" "visceral" "natural" these are just numbers. Not to mention the potential in the debayer part if the image creation. The fact that it may require a change of approach to the image rendering process may make it harder, at least initially, but it does not change facts. And yes who has more experience with color and image rendition than lens manufacturers? They are absolutely the best suited for creating "looks" they know what it takes in they ray tracing software and need to translate it to the editing software "speak". I guess they not ready for that yet. But they will see this eventually. Right now they seem to be just lost and try to find the way talking to the DPs. The DPs don't really get paid for sitting in the edit bay with the colorist for weeks or months after production ended and go over every single take . They would rather get it in camera, something they have done for ever, hand the footage to the post, tell them not to change the look , get paid and move on. As good as it sounds this is not the best or even most efficient way to work with digital images. Much like with the REDCODE the image is best recorded as clear sharp and pristine as possible and the effects added later. Just so they can be reversed if needed or "reshot " for different look. All in the edit bay. Since there are no decent optical effect software modules and the colorists wouldn't really understand them since they have been traditionally handled during production it all still lays on the DP. I guess the DPs are impressed with "Saving Private Ryan" and think Steven Spielberg and Janusz Kaminski are all about uncoated lenses. There is so much more to their work than that. Uncoated lenses are a very small part of their craft. Besides, as I recall that film was shot on film so it does not really apply. I think this is a wrong approach. Stripping coating off lenses and calling it vintage is wrong no matter how one embelishes it. But time will tell....Market will speak. I know many DPs know better than that...
    Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek-dot-org, jacek2@optitek.org
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  3. #23  
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    Jacek, I get where you are coming from a little bit with the LUT thing, but until high performance and effective light field capture is actually in place simulating lens is effects (and defects) with global luminance and chrominance mapping alone will not give the same results as changing a lens - for bettering or for worse. I mean, you’re not refurbishing 40+ year old Lomo Anamorphic Lenses because the optical performance is higher than a Sigma ART 18-35 zoom lens that costs $600 new when on discount, right ?
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  4. #24  
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    You right I don't,
    But neither do i strip coating of modern lenses and call them vintage. All this special coating nonsense is nothing else but smoke and mirrors, vintage lenses did not have any "special " coatings. They have single layer coatings that match the glass types used for the best image rendition possible.
    Neither do I see what light field imaging (for the lack of better term) has to do with a two dimensional flat image on the cmos sensor that is digitized and displayed in the form of pixel array.
    You are not looking at an image from different angles, not looking at its side or behind it, what does it have to do with manipulating luma and chroma values of the display?
    Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek-dot-org, jacek2@optitek.org
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  5. #25  
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    The second order consequences of single coatings or uncoated elements is the interaction between photons and surfaces within the lens itself. Stray light bouncing and reflecting.

    Simply lessening contrast in some areas via a lut is not as “dimensional” and I mean that in both a 2D and 3D sense, which cannot be emulated by a traditional look up table but could be emulated via a lightfield.

    From my perspective there is room for a new visual language to develop in cinema, and it is and will develop more. But one would be remiss to develop a new language without at least a small knowledge of what has come before if it’s accessible and in some ways familiar. It’s hard to know where you are going if you don’t know where you are or where you have been before. Possible but difficult.

    I mean, I am absolutely personally not a fan of fake film grain, but some people swear by it and love it. However , I do love flares and imperfections created optically, even if they are “wrong” - I mean, have you ever seen an after effects flare plugin that you liked ?
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  6. #26  
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    It's not about lessening contrast, sorry. If there were a good optical effects modules there would be no fake vintage lenses or this thread haha. That's my point. Instead of the lens manufacturers trying to make a quick buck and mislead customers with their clueless marketing and buzz words like organic or natural they should sit down and figure out what makes these old lenses look the way they do and write software to simulate it. Because sure as hell it would not be profitable for them to come up with specific lens design to sell 50 or100 sets of lenses. That process cost millions and takes a long time, unless one steals it ;-)
    And yes- I speak with a lot of DPs I've known for decades that laugh their butts off at these lame cheap marketing tricks....
    For the record I like what Sigma is doing with their Art lenses and their Cine lens series. I think they are a brilliant company. Lets just call this a brain fart, can happen to anyone....
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  7. #27  
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    What impresses me most about these "classic" lenses is the iData (/i technology) available on the PL mounts. I own a set of 7 Sigma PL primes, and really like them but wish they had iData - wonder if they might offer an upgrade and/or start making this available on their standard versions. For me I sometimes like the sharpness of the coated optics, also like the T1.5 stop (as opposed to T2.5 minimum on these - kind of funky how it is marked at t2.5 then a smidge away T2.8. For me the Revolva PL mount which now has diffusion available is a better solution when needed, the pearl for instance is very similar to the loss of contrast on these newer old style lenses, but less with pearl 1 (I never have seen pearl 2 but if you really wanted it they might make it available).
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  8. #28  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Dishler View Post
    What impresses me most about these "classic" lenses is the iData (/i technology) available on the PL mounts. I own a set of 7 Sigma PL primes, and really like them but wish they had iData - wonder if they might offer an upgrade and/or start making this available on their standard versions. For me I sometimes like the sharpness of the coated optics, also like the T1.5 stop (as opposed to T2.5 minimum on these - kind of funky how it is marked at t2.5 then a smidge away T2.8. For me the Revolva PL mount which now has diffusion available is a better solution when needed, the pearl for instance is very similar to the loss of contrast on these newer old style lenses, but less with pearl 1 (I never have seen pearl 2 but if you really wanted it they might make it available).
    Yup they are making a set with iData
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  9. #29  
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    Might not be possible, but sure would consider getting a retro fit on that!
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