Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: RED Monstro 8K VV & ARRI Alexa LF 4.5K Camera Test 2019

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  1. #11  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McKechnie View Post
    Yea, Arri has been doing amazing work and continues to do so with their sensor tech. To think that their 10-year old sensor still surpasses most cameras. RED continues to push resolution at the forefront of their game. I just wish they'd focus more on overall image aesthetic, color, etc as opposed to pushing the K's, because as this test proves, 4.5K is more than enough.

    IMO, I still think the dragon sensors is one of the best sensors RED has made, although, Monstro looks mighty fine as well.
    I certainly hope you download that ProRes file. 4.5K is likely going to be enough for some, but the resolution-haters from "camp harshness" would say more resolution in this case improves things.

    But I'll save my comments for off the air on that.

    I need to look at something regarding the color match stuff as on sRGB displays I'm seeing more saturation than I should be, but I'm in Vegas now for NAB. Might tackle that in a bit and see if there was some Rec.709 to sRGB chaos going on somewhere.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Bing Bailey's Avatar
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    all the other metrics seemed pretty similar but Arri has better and more realistic/pleasing skin tones hands down. I'm sure red could improve in this area. they have improved a lot
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  #13  
    Fire Chief Jarred Land's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McKechnie View Post
    Yea, Arri has been doing amazing work and continues to do so with their sensor tech. To think that their 10-year old sensor still surpasses most cameras. RED continues to push resolution at the forefront of their game. I just wish they'd focus more on overall image aesthetic, color, etc as opposed to pushing the K's, because as this test proves, 4.5K is more than enough.
    Thx Chris. Always listening. Resolution obviously is important to us, but if you look at the work we have done most recently it hasn’t been all that we are pushing forward. Gemini, low light , IPP2 and the workflow acceleration with Nvidia are examples of us taking a moment to improve all the other pieces.

    And yes... good enough is , well, good enough. But that is never where we have lived. Remember it wasn’t too long ago when 4.5k wasn’t “ just good enough “ , it was overkill and it was unnecessary. You read the exact same things about 8k now , word for word, that people said about 4k not more than a couple years ago. And that’s ok.

    At the end of the day no matter what we say or the other guys say in the end it is the viewer who gets the final vote.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Brendan H. Banks's Avatar
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    Man that Monstro really works in the shadows. I will say there were some things about the LF on certain shots that spoke to me, though I'm having trouble putting my finger on it. There were some that also obviously went to Monstro...detail preservation to be specific. Will have to download the ProRes and spend some time looking through more closely. Thanks for putting in the (likely enormous amount of) time.
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McKechnie View Post
    Yea, Arri has been doing amazing work and continues to do so with their sensor tech. To think that their 10-year old sensor still surpasses most cameras. RED continues to push resolution at the forefront of their game. I just wish they'd focus more on overall image aesthetic, color, etc as opposed to pushing the K's, because as this test proves, 4.5K is more than enough.

    IMO, I still think the dragon sensors is one of the best sensors RED has made, although, Monstro looks mighty fine as well.
    As time goes on, I appreciate ALEVIIIs achievements/capabilities more and more. Exemplified best by Alexa Classics; only 2k and still selling for ~$7k+ almost ten years later, whereas R1s don't move for $1k (side note: cash are the "Ks" that actually matter, am I right?)

    Furthermore, though I could be wrong, it seems to me that RED didn't expect Gemini to be as popular as it has become (matter of fact, originally they weren't even going to release it). With that in mind, I think customers are speaking loud and clear with their dollars/purchase decisions (re: DR/Colour/LL/Cost>resolution) and it'll be interesting to see how (or if) that changes RED's roadmap moving forward in the 2D space.

    A VV/8k "Gemini" seems like a no brainer. Full sensor downscale for HFR seems like a no brainer. Internal NDs, no brainer. Half-baked raw codec would be nice (re: prores raw, or BRAW, which would be free). Low light/dual ISO, no brainer. 8k LF with ~5k s35 is, in my opinion, a sweet spot that should be in all but the entry-level DSMC3s (which'll be s35 8k)... All great options to look at.

    As for the OP: Hey Phil, any chance for an HEVC encode of the video?... 60gb prores is kinda, well, 60gb!
    Last edited by Mike P.; 04-06-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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  #16  
    Fire Chief Jarred Land's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    Exemplified best by Alexa Classics; only 2k and still selling for ~$7k+ almost ten years later, whereas R1s don't move for $1k (side note: cash are the "Ks" that actually matter, am I right?)
    Yup, sounds about right. The Alexa Classic was 5x the price of the R1 at launch. And truth be told.. if you put either one of those cameras in a capable DP's hands they both could still take some incredible images.
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  7. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Yup, sounds about right. The Alexa Classic was 5x the price of the R1 at launch. And truth be told.. if you put either one of those cameras in a capable DP's hands they both could still take some incredible images.
    truth!!! all camera are just tools. The guy behind the camera can make or break an image.

    I’ll be the first to admit that red camera aren’t perfect. Red is young and learning and arri been making camera for much much longer (however arri also has a lot of issues to work out).

    End of day, i don’t consider myself a great cinematographer. I try to hardest and maybe if i was better i would prefer arri like a lot of the great cinematographer do, but i personally have been able to get the same image out of both camera system since my Epic-M #642 (I also never knew film and have always been a digital guy). I prefer to shoot on red because they believe in what i believe; being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Arri settled on the same sensor for over ten years and has said it good enough. Red like me doesn’t settle, they try harder.

    I hope Red doesn't settle before I do, because am not planning on it until am in my late 70's, if they keep going maybe I'll settle for an Arri ;-)
    Last edited by jacob.schwarz; 04-06-2019 at 02:50 PM.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Yup, sounds about right. The Alexa Classic was 5x the price of the R1 at launch. And truth be told.. if you put either one of those cameras in a capable DP's hands they both could still take some incredible images.
    Touché. Granted, I was referring to the resolution game -- a 2k camera substantially outselling a 4k camera 10 years later when 4k is actually viewable, is very telling. Hence why I mentioned the (potentially unexpected) positive response to Gemini, even though it can "only" deliver 4k and there are 8k options available (used/old stock of Epic-Ws and Weapon Helium being cheaper).

    Also, all Arri's cameras, from 2k Classics to 6.5k A65, look/react/expose/function the exact same, so they retain value. IPP2 is a step in that direction from a post perspective (and I *love* it for that), but each RED sensor exposes differently, captures different DR/Colour/artifacts/noise floors, and has different nuances that need to be learned to extract the most out of each. Production doesn't want to deal with that, though owner-ops don't mind because we own the tool and can test/finesse as much as we want.

    (Side note: To be fair, Alexa was also working/actively renting for 5x as long as the R1. It seems REDs are harder to get it out the door on a rental basis unless you're at the tip-of-the-spear sensor-wise/body-wise, which ends up being more costly over the same timeframe since there's a new sensor or body every 18mths).
    Last edited by Mike P.; 04-06-2019 at 03:31 PM.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Chris McKechnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Thx Chris. Always listening. Resolution obviously is important to us, but if you look at the work we have done most recently it hasn’t been all that we are pushing forward. Gemini, low light , IPP2 and the workflow acceleration with Nvidia are examples of us taking a moment to improve all the other pieces.

    And yes... good enough is , well, good enough. But that is never where we have lived. Remember it wasn’t too long ago when 4.5k wasn’t “ just good enough “ , it was overkill and it was unnecessary. You read the exact same things about 8k now , word for word, that people said about 4k not more than a couple years ago. And that’s ok.

    At the end of the day no matter what we say or the other guys say in the end it is the viewer who gets the final vote.
    Yup. Well said Sir! RED has always been an innovator while at the same time being a leader. While most movies are still being screened in 2k, it’s hard for productions, especially those with lower budgets, to shoot above 2k, let alone 4K. Even on some of those higher end jobs, they still shoot at the resolution master, and things still look great. While 4K and above acquisition becomes more and more relevant as time progresses, it will be interesting to see when the resolution is enough. Most people don’t look great in 8K, let alone 4K. Most people are having to shoot with filters, and do a lot of work in post just to make the talent look like, well...movie stars.

    I think that companies like Blackmagic and Kinefinity continue to push the big boys / RED and Arri, to make more cost effective cameras, which I think is great, because, who doesn’t want to pay less for a great camera. I think there will come a time where these lower budget cameras get requested more than the big boys, just from a standpoint of cost. As a producer, it’s a lot more cost effective to hire a DP with a Blackmagic than it is with an Alexa. Obviously, it’s a different camera with a different look, but with today’s sophisticated grading techniques and post processes, you can get cameras darn close, and then these cheaper cameras are more than good enough. Productions want to cut wherever they can, and typically that’s with camera first...because it’s a ripple effect. The bigger the camera, the bugger the crew, hard drives, etc. BM and Kinefinity are trying to saturate the market with their camera systems, and BM is especially doing a great job at that. Most filmmakers have a 4K Camera now, so what sets the big boys apart, and is they enough to justify the cost difference on all fronts?
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  10. #20  
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    Great test Phil! As nature filmmaker I was happy to see nature blues and greens are so far excellent to Arri. They just screwed up...
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