Thread: ProRes Raw

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  1. #1 ProRes Raw 
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Part 1: What is ProRes RAW and Why Should You Care?




    Part 2: How to Shoot ProRes RAW And The 3 Things You Need




    Part 3: How to Edit and Grade ProRes RAW Footage




    ProRes RAW vs. RED R3D files ... WHICH IS BETTER??



    ProRes RAW vs. RED R3D files ... REVISITED #Part2

    Last edited by rand thompson; 12-03-2018 at 08:13 PM.
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member AndreeMarkefors's Avatar
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    There's some pretty crazy "information" in these videos.

    None of these guys seem to be aware of what they're looking at. FCPX auto adds a LUT when you import Log footage and some of the images shown in these videos (ridiculous over exposure) are just messed up monitoring setups.

    There seems to be a consensus among YouTubers that ProRes RAW is somehow magic in how it can "recover" highlights, as if is thanks to the codec that a 6 stop clip can be recovered no problem...
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Andree,

    Your comments were the reason I posted these. I wanted to know what other members thought about these tests. I saw these and and felt uncertain about the findings.
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member andrewhake's Avatar
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    That "BEFORE / AFTER" thing is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Just a fundamental misunderstanding of how Raw video works or FCPX works..

    "I over exposed this R3D using ISO."

    https://youtu.be/0uKV0BcFgoc?t=362

    WAT.
    Last edited by andrewhake; 12-04-2018 at 05:03 PM.
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    You can recover .R3d files from over exposure, I think , just as well as ProRes Raw.

    5 Stops Over



    Last edited by rand thompson; 12-04-2018 at 07:01 PM.
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member AndreeMarkefors's Avatar
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    I wouldn't actually use the word 'recover' here, but you are right that this is very similar to what's going on.

    First, one needs to understand what is actually captured on the set/scene. I can see how people get lost between menu screens of setting up the recording path, monitoring path, LUTs and so on. I guess there is a 'knowledge' element as well as 'I'm going to be prudent and check my settings' element.

    I think RED has superior tools with the goal posts that are uniquely transparent regarding what the sensor sees—well done, RED.

    But regardless of camera and exposure tools used, once you have recorded unclipped data, then there's the issue of how it's displayed in your NLE/compositor. Here too, there are many roads you can take to trip up.

    I think it's a bit unfortunate that FCPX just adds a normalising LUT to log footage without popping up at least a dialogue telling you that something has happened behind the scenes. If you're not used to that, it can be an issue for sure.

    Raw data is unique in that it can be non destructively re-interpolated just by changing a few basic settings. And sure—if you've got a serious mismatch in your setup and then correct it, it might look like magic. But of course, anything that is truly clipped in the underlying data was never there, and can't be recovered.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Here is the test by "LensProToGo" , of the sample image I provided above along with the corresponding .R3D files from his tests just if you or anyone else wanted to test on their own. Something is "Off" about both his Gemini "-5 stops under in Lowlight(LL) mode vs Standard mode" and his "+5 stops over in Lowlight(LL) mode vs Standard mode". The "Standard modes" always look better and especially better in the Low Light demonstration. I don't believe he even used the IPP2 workfloiw correctly at all in this video.




    Download the RAW R3D Files here:
    http://bit.ly/2MYSNkf


    As you stated, Red has different tools for the proper development of their Raw footage. Some "in-camera" and what I consider their best tool, Redcine-X. Unfortunately, most people have misunderstood the "It's all metadata" concept. They believe they can shoot how they want , severely underexposed and overexposed, and that they should be able to bring back that "lost" information with no problems in post. When they can't, it must be a problem with their Red camera.

    Most of the tests that I've done on this forum where I take a severely underexposed .R3D file and I bring it up in exposure drastically, was never designed to show how I made it useable but to show the consequences of shooting it that underexposed in the first place.

    I believe when I was still using Avid Media Composer, the last few updates had a method in the "Color Management" section (I believe this was the area its been over 2 years since I last used it) were you could assign a default Lut as well.

    .
    Last edited by rand thompson; 12-06-2018 at 08:25 AM.
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  8. #8  
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    You guys should take another look at ProRes Raw VS. R3Dcode Raw Part-1 for something I feel is particularly interesting... Look at the rendering of the skin-tones in the highlight recovery test in Part-1. The Jerseyfilmaker talks about his sun-burn during the highlight recovery test with the FS5/Atomos which is very evident in the redness of his skin when the highlights are pulled down but then when looking at the skin-tones produced from the Raven and R3D raw highlight recovery test the skin is much less magenta and rendered much more beautifully (he doesn't talk about this) when the ISO is dropped back down to where it should have been. This is great evidence of Sony color science leaning towards magenta. I can speak personally as I have experienced skin-tones like this on FS7 / FS5 as I came from a Sony environment previously. ProRes Raw is an advancement over 422 and definitely XAVC for sure and anyone in a Sony or Panasonic environment should adopt it into their workflow as it does increase latitude compared to previous codecs but I can say from personal experience with Dragon sensor and Gemini that they have much more latitude and R3dcode can be push much more intense grades. However you really should be exposing properly and not rely on recovery techniques with either camera but these tests are always interesting. These reviews always error on bias and lack of control variables especially with NLE's like FCPX where base LUT's are applied a lot of times without the operator knowing.
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  9. #9  
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    I think Prores raw is rad in that it playbacks with minimal hardware... But, yeah, these guys seem to be coming from a 'first time shooting raw' POV and/or seem to be making it more than what it is (e.g. overexposed via ISO or LUT isn't really overexposed).

    I think BRAW is better, if only because they aren't charging to license it, it's cross-platform, and I'm confident that BMD has professionals in mind (plus it'll get maximized with Resolve). My only reservation is the half-hardware/in-camera debayer that it uses to get real-time playback (fear being that it won't be as malleable as full-software/post debayer ala r3dcode... I mean, IPP2 even makes M and MX footage noticeably better, and that shit is over 10 years old!)

    And obviously r3d raw shoots internally, so it'd be a waste of money to buy an external recorder to shoot prores raw on RED anyway.

    As far as I'm concerned, BRAW opens up more doors than Prores raw. Not just for other camera manufacturers (because the no license cost) but for BMD themselves. Having good quality 12:1 raw allows higher than 4k/60p+ raw capture on inexpensive media. Higher than 4k, to me, means VV/FF35 6k~8k from BMD is right around the corner, and hopefully it'll be sub-$10k... that's ecosystem-switch worthy.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 12-18-2018 at 11:35 AM.
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