Thread: Call for better audio recording on newer RED cameras.

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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Separate audio is better for creative reasons..... both departments benefit from being free of each other.. I accept for prosaic work there are reason for single but it is fundentally and always will be a lesss creative approach!
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member Mark Phelan's Avatar
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    Watched the Royal Wedding this morning and when they rode out in the carriage the one thing you saw was how many smartphones were being held to capture the event. Forget big brother recording your entire life, WE are big brother.

    If RED ignores this elephant in the room issue, it is to their detriment. EVERYONE wants outstanding audio alongside the visual abilities. I cannot understand why Sound Devices has not made a dedicated module or even been incorporated inside the brain. I think most would even welcome a brain that is a smidge larger if it meant a strong sound board was, well, on board. At the very least, a module that is bomb-proof.

    Sound is fifty percent of the movie. Make it so, number one.
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lindsay View Post
    Separate audio is better for creative reasons..... both departments benefit from being free of each other.. I accept for prosaic work there are reason for single but it is fundentally and always will be a lesss creative approach!
    I see you feel the need to continue pushing dual system even after I pretty explicitly stated that isn't what the thread is about. (and I think I am justified in defining what the thread is about since it was my quote from another that inspired this new thread.)

    "-Define Prosaic at Dictionary.com
    Prosaic definition: commonplace or dull; matter-of-fact or unimaginative. "

    To suggest that any project or shooting situation that requires or benefits from a more streamlined approach is "prosaic" seems a bit snobbish.
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  4. #24  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    I see you feel the need to continue pushing dual system even after I pretty explicitly stated that isn't what the thread is about. (and I think I am justified in defining what the thread is about since it was my quote from another that inspired this new thread
    Fair enough... Will try create another thread to share how we are handling this ..

    "-Define Prosaic at Dictionary.com
    Prosaic definition: commonplace or dull; matter-of-fact or unimaginative. "
    Since it is my useage I'd really rather prefer the Oxford Englsh dictornary definition... which is less agressive in this context ;-)

    I have really tried to help/push in the past but have a differnet perspective today... (Note I have spoken to Red EU directly about this quite a few times and patiently posted my test results on this forum.. but I supect Red feel that this need is adequately catered for by Offhollywoods OMOD.)

    I do agree that DMC2 audio is not good (hence my original post in this thread)!
    It has ground isolation issues that are a big problem... and so few seem to get it!
    It is somtimes not even useful for playback... when the soundguys pitch up without a way of powering his Hop and it needs to be powered from the camera battery all is usually lost!

    I do also feel Red should consider a small module specifially for this.. but as a community I can see we are not exatly alignned on what that should be.. I personally feel they need for it to be low cost, small and only doing the bare minum... I am thinking about the scarlet W here...phantom powering, balanced in, that can be switched to line level if needed... I think it should be tiny and not use XLRs (but I realise that is perhaps not what many want)

    To suggest that any project or shooting situation that requires or benefits from a more streamlined approach is "prosaic" seems a bit snobbish.
    You may be right... but not as you think.

    There is a fascinating conversation between Jean-Pierre Beauviala and Goddard where JP articulates his regret in his pivotal role in bringing sound and picture acquireing further together.. Here was a genius engineer that wanted to thrust tools into the hands of revolutionaries not big bloated studio style crews...! I understand his regret...and it is partly my love and suport of creative sound that encouraged me to assert (perhaps too emphatically...)

    Separate audio is better for creative reasons..... both departments benefit from being free of each other.. I accept for prosaic work there are reason for single but it is fundentally and always will be a lesss creative approach!
    I probably mean this...

    Separate audio is often better for creative reasons..... both departments can benefit from being free of each other.. I accept for lots of work there are reason for a single system but the comon place assumption that they should stay together is problematic for me!...

    Anyways good luck with this and your film sounds interesting!
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  5. #25  
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    If you don't have a sound guy, you probably shouldn't be doing the project. And while we are at it why doesbn't Red have built in lighting?

    I can think of 100 different reasons to do double system sound, and zero reasons to record audio on camera.
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  6. #26  
    Senior Member Reuben Evans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    If you don't have a sound guy, you probably shouldn't be doing the project. And while we are at it why doesbn't Red have built in lighting?

    I can think of 100 different reasons to do double system sound, and zero reasons to record audio on camera.
    Run and Gun documentary work is a very good reason for it. Sometimes you need to be as fast as possible, and the next shoot you can do a nice big setup. Some will say RED isn't a good tool for doc work, but that isn't the case. The resolution and DR makes it an exceptional tool for situations when you can't control the light.
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  7. #27  
    Senior Member Frank Glencairn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben Evans View Post
    Some will say RED isn't a good tool for doc work, but that isn't the case. The resolution and DR makes it an exceptional tool for situations when you can't control the light.
    Yeah - I shot some high glossy (and most of them award winning) documentaries on RED, never had any issues or problems. I think it's a myth.
    80% of it is good planing months ahead - the rest is experience, skills and knowing your camera and shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lindsay View Post
    Separate audio is better for creative reasons.....
    Seriously?

    How exactly do you get "creative" as a sound guy anyway, and how exactly does in camera recording change that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    If you don't have a sound guy, you probably shouldn't be doing the project. And while we are at it why doesbn't Red have built in lighting?

    I can think of 100 different reasons to do double system sound, and zero reasons to record audio on camera.
    What the hell are you guys talking about?

    Nobody was talking about "not having a sound guy" - of course you have one.
    Who would operate the boom and the field mixer otherwise?

    What does this have to do with recording in camera?
    Last edited by Frank Glencairn; 05-19-2018 at 12:47 PM.
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  8. #28  
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    Nobody was talking about "not having a sound guy" - of course you have one.
    Who would operate the boom and the field mixer otherwise?
    So if you have the guy, why on earth would you record sound on the camera? I seriously can't think of one single reason. It is easier, faster, and better to do double system sound. Particularly on docs. If you are double system, the sound guy can keep rolling during battery changes and reloads if you are truly in an uncontrollable setting. The sound guy can record wild sound without the camera rolling. Not running sound to camera makes it smaller and lighter, not to mention the spaghetti of cables.

    Sound is it's own department, it shouldn't have anything to do with camera past a lock it box.

    Nick

    Edit
    Although this is not helpful to the point of the thread, so I'll shut up. I just can't stand when some producer decides we need to run sound to the camera because we can.
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member Frank Glencairn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    It is easier, faster, and better to do double system sound.
    How ist that easier?
    How is that faster?
    How is that better?

    There is nothing faster, easier and better, than having your audio tracks
    married to your images where they belong ,out of the box in the first place (unless you don't give a shit, cause somebody else does the post production for you).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    . If you are double system, the sound guy can keep rolling during battery changes and reloads if you are truly in an uncontrollable setting.
    Are you shooting in a war zone? When you can't control your setting, you did something wrong (most of the time, it's planing), or you just need to get better, so you can take over control.
    With all the documentaries under my belt, I never let anything happen, that I don't control.

    And why on earth, should my sound guy rolling when I don't? Again, only when you lost control, instead of making the calls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    Not running sound to camera makes it smaller and lighter, not to mention the spaghetti of cables.
    Yeah, that stupid cable is soooo heavy and big, a totally imposition.

    Really? If a cable more or less is too much for you, maybe you have the wrong job - and yes, I know your IMBD :-)
    Last edited by Frank Glencairn; 05-19-2018 at 01:10 PM.
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  10. #30  
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    Even as a solo operator or with a small crew, much prefer separate sound. I used to have Sony F3 with XLR and did both sound into camera and on SD 633, the SD version always was better. Also TC is so powerful, especially with 2 camera shoots. Only need something tiny and light on camera, like Ultrasync, and once it has synced, does not even need to be communicating with Wave master, although it always is. There is Dugan automix on SD 633 and others, which allows for two or more talent to be mic'd, have a boom, and like magic it all sounds great. As mentioned can continue recording sound separate from camera when needed. Finally, sound files can be worked on independently in post with things like Izotope RX6. And there are apps that allow control of sound recording from TC and also controlling SD633 all from a phone or iPAD. And now there are even smaller/lighter boxes than 633. The main benefit I see is if there is a shotgun on camera directly recording, or a single LAV received by camera directly this could be a benefit, but one would still have to monitor the sound, and there is more chance of clipping, etc. unless there is sophisticated hardware in the camera or in a module. I do see the hassle factor of having to track multiple media however, and understand that others needs might vary.
    Last edited by Jon Dishler; 05-19-2018 at 01:31 PM.
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