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  1. #651  
    Senior Member Reuben Evans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff Hornbaker View Post
    I am not really one to get involved in discussions but in this case it seems appropriate.

    I enjoy and learn reading this forum so please take these words as only a suggestion to those that wish to listen, not One needs to respond with any hate, I will not post again.

    Jeff
    Jeff you sound like a really solid, honorable guy. I think some of us are just trying to get some clarity on the conflicting reports. Its not a negativity thing, just a clarity thing. RED is an unusual company in that they listen to their customers who engage the company, but also try to keep a good attitude. It is that openness, and family atmosphere that really sets this company apart.
    Reuben Evans
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  2. #652  
    Senior Member Thai Christen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Think the sensor swap thing is more of a security thing for people having problems to decide what to choose. Rental houses investing in one sensor then realize all their clients asking for something else, etc. As the options are plenty I think it´s a good thing.

    I used all options available quite a lot, except for gemini that I never tested, and lot of the people I work with ask for recommendations on what camera to buy and I still thinks its very difficult to give a straight answer. So I can only imagine the confusion to somebody new to RED. So the answer now is that it does not really matter which one they buy you can always change later :)
    Sure, but ONLY if you own Weapon AND have Armor-W. This covers probably 3% ? (my assumption) of total Red owner market (Dscm1 and R1 included).

    With all my respect to RED, but let's be honest here. Sensor swap program as it currently is, is tempting but not very attractive.
    Rental houses will stock up with new Red cameras as they go. Why going through the hassle of sensor swapping and risking downtime?
    Owner operators who have the financial backup will be better off buying second body with a different sensor (Epic-W Helium and Gemini).
    Lets assume you keep your camera at least 3 years until you upgrade, with a little bit of math and logic you will see that this is the better route.
    Advantage of having two bodies is obvious:
    a) you have full backup.
    b) you can rent your second camera and still be able to shoot your project.
    c) free of mind and use which sensor you like depending on your project.
    d) if you currently own Helium camera and buy Gemini body, you'd most probably pay off Gemini after 3 years. Same cost (or less) you would be paying if you swap sensors more than once per year.
    Last edited by Thai Christen; 05-01-2018 at 11:56 PM. Reason: added d)
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  3. #653  
    Senior Member David J. Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben Evans View Post
    Yeah, that was weird. I thought for sure Jarred was saying you didn't have to have RED Armor-W to be able to buy a Gemini sensor for 5K, and have your Helium one put on the shelf, if you have a Helium Weapon CF. You'd just have to pay $1950 to have it put back in, instead of it being free.

    So If you buy a Gemini sensor (without RED Armor-W) you lose your Helium one. Unless you pay a $6K storage fee? (I know it extends the warranty and so on) Something doesn't seem right about that. It makes it almost meaningless that you bought a Helium Weapon, if you opt for Gemini and not RED Armor-W.

    Why not just sell us Gemini for $5K installed. And then it is $1,950 service fee when you want to swap back to the Helium chip you already paid for?

    I'd love to use Gemini for my next project, and Helium next year.

    Then leave the RED Armor-W program as is for those who'd want it.

    Perhaps Brent and Jarred need to compare posts and do a little pow wow.
    Yes. I hate to sound like that guy, but I have insurance. I don't need or want RA-W even if it was $100 add-on. If something happens to my camera or whatever (God forbid) I'd call up Athos.

    With that said, two reasons I bought the Weapon CF before having the knowledge.

    1. I had no idea the VV was gonna be $30K, which is why I bought the weapon in the first place, to upgrade, but cannot afford.
    2. I didn't know it was $6K to do sensor swaps, in addition to buying sensors ($5K, $10K, $30K). And then an additional $2K after. Whoa.

    If I would have known either or all of these things, I would have bought the Epic-W, which I think is more than reasonably priced.

    Don't get me wrong, RED being the American made beast that is and it does make great images, I just wish the information was earlier and clearer to inform the customer/buyer.
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  4. #654  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post

    There are a lot of people still on DMSC1 who would like to upgrade, but missed the opportunity and the spread is too large now. I want those people back in the game as well, even if it's a horrible business decision for us.

    .
    Jarred,

    Many many thanks for this consideration for DSMC1 owner.
    I will freeze my differents gears invest and wait more news !!
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  5. #655  
    Senior Member Corey Robson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Blair is correct.. no new modular body till 2020. Of course we will continue making the "integrated" special cameras like Panavision DXL etc.

    You are the guy im looking at though... DSMC1 owner who got left behind because the game got too rich for your blood.

    It's exciting.. time to reset the deck. Thanks to all of you who emailed me last night with your thoughts. Lots of work to do :)
    Helium, Monstro, and now Gemini are all great sensors; none of which would limit me creatively anytime soon. But having come off a show where I fought hard to go Red only to be plagued by firmware issues, I hope Red’s long game is to pour a majority of resources into improving reliability and quality out of their DSMC2 bodies instead of DSMC3. I’ve been with Red a long time but the thought of a new system around the corner with inevitable growing pains makes me question continuing down this road. Until I hear that DSMC2 is rock solid reliable despite sensor advances, I will not use them as my main bodies or be upgrading to DSMC3. And that really sucks to say.
    Corey Robson
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  6. #656  
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    If there is a Scarlet-W to Gemini upgrade path, is the upgrade price something that is able to be financed through Socal Leasing?
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  7. #657  
    Quote Originally Posted by alexandre Chailan View Post
    Jarred,

    Many many thanks for this consideration for DSMC1 owner.
    I will freeze my differents gears invest and wait more news !!
    +1 Would upgrade my Epic MX today!
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  8. #658  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Well said. Im really taking this to heart right now.
    We feel the same way about being left out of upgrade options at the Raven level, seems that now we are the bastard child as old redones had a path, now the scarlet-w's...but never ever a mention of a raven path, though for most raven buyers this was a first purchase into the red ecosystem. I am not even saying i need an upgrade right now, im still very happy and did and an amazing shoot with an A list director yesterday on the raven. Though, it seems like this is the level of camera that is prime for upgrade paths as its the entry level. so entry level purchase then being stuck? and everyone else gets to move on? very strange.
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  9. #659  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey Robson View Post
    Helium, Monstro, and now Gemini are all great sensors; none of which would limit me creatively anytime soon. But having come off a show where I fought hard to go Red only to be plagued by firmware issues, I hope Red’s long game is to pour a majority of resources into improving reliability and quality out of their DSMC2 bodies instead of DSMC3. I’ve been with Red a long time but the thought of a new system around the corner with inevitable growing pains makes me question continuing down this road. Until I hear that DSMC2 is rock solid reliable despite sensor advances, I will not use them as my main bodies or be upgrading to DSMC3. And that really sucks to say.
    Ouch. Curious what kind of firmware issues came up. I do a lot of multi-cam work and have seen some weirdness, but nothing that we couldn't sort out unless the body had its own issues, which is rare. Best of luck with your future shows, whatever you shoot with.

    Peace - #19
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  10. #660  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    FWIW, Raven was priced very aggressively to expand RED's market, with the caveat that it may not be eligible for the kinds of upgrades offered on other bodies.

    Cheers - #19
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