Thread: RED Monstro - Dynamic Range Examined

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  1. #21  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasOberg View Post
    A very interesting test Phil.
    Do you think the MX sensor would have 13.5 stops if measure in this way as well?
    Tricky question I know, but If one uses say noise reduction tools like Neat Video how far do you think one could go in ISO with Monstro. Say if the end result is 4k TV or 4K blueray (so not cinema).
    To quote myself from 4 years ago and all of these were measured in the same exact 3 step method btw:

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Dynamic Range Summary of Digital Cinema Cameras as of 01.01.2014

    Red Epic Dragon = 16.3 (w/ HDRx up to 22.3)
    Arri Alexa = 14.1
    Sony F65 = 14
    Sony F55 = 14
    Red Mysterium-X = 13.5 (w/ HDRx up to 19.5)
    Canon C500 = 12

    As for NR related stuff, if you're in a bind in really low light you can get decent results up to ISO 6400 with NR. I think it will always vary on how you expose for whatever your low light material is however. If you've got stuff that just lives in the noise floor, it's just not there.


    Quote Originally Posted by AndreeMarkefors View Post
    I don't understand how a discussion around DR can involve anything but 'usable stops', since the rest is—per definition—unusable.

    Anything outside of 'usable' is firmly within snake oil territory. And the extent to which a certain community reaches for it, will determine how people outside that community looks at said community.
    To be clear, in case you missed what was written, I have yet to have seen one definition industry wide as to what a Usable Stop is. It is a loose term that has not much to do with measurement as you can place your shadow tones through absolute black in various places depending on your color grade. Total Captured Dynamic Range is something that can be measured with every single camera with industry standard tools and techniques.

    In most cases Usable Stops are defined as one of these:
    - A clear measured stop above the noise floor
    - Where a "good amount" of a visible stop just touches the noise floor
    - Where a visible separation of tones sinks into the noise floor
    - Where the expansion of tones becomes too noisy (to taste) at higher ISOs

    There is zero snake oil in a measured result that you can place within a standard graded image. I've been to 3 post houses this month discussing much of this and sharing these and other results.

    To be explicitly clear I own the appropriate equipment and get hired to test this stuff fairly on the regular for all cameras, pretty much when anything new is released. All cameras are tested at full RGB clip and full retained and then measured two additional ways to verify results.

    I'll let everybody decide whatever the hell they think a usable stop is. Most DPs and Colorists I work with or see regularly would place this in the category of 15/16 "Usable Stops", which is what I have stated in the graphics and I have also provided the rather accurate measurement for those he are looking for something not-so-subjective.
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Thanks again Phil

    We tested our monstro as soon as we got it.. dynamic range, sensitivity etc etc...

    Our testing is simply so we understand the tools... what to do differently and what more (or less) is possible with this latest gen camera. We can't share as Phil does as we are still not finished but... but a few of our conclusions:

    1 1/3 stops more sensitive. ( 1 of these stops is within the ISO recalibration... )
    If you are mindful of the extra sensitivity you can achieve similar highlight role off as a dragon camera... but high quality NDs at 2.1 and 2.4 are now more important and needs to be in the kit..
    If you shoot 8k for 4K or 2k via a careful post pipeline then about 1600iso (actually 3200iso in dragon money) is valid. Now loads of you who don't like any texture (or certain pictorial styles) may not be happy this way.... but it is the route to matching Alexa stops above grey.
    When you dropping to 5 and 6k I wouldn't consider rating so high.... unless you had to.

    Colour separation in the shadows is just obviously better.. less slop, clearer and more bite.

    Dynamic range is not the significant change between dragon and monstro... the above differences are far more significant.

    The DoF difference between 8k Monstro and S35 is about 1 1/3 of a stop (between 6k and 8k monstro it is very close to 1 stop) ... this can be useful.

    Post processing computational demands are a little higher than dragon but less than helium. Hope red can tweak the code to speed this up in the future. ( I know wavelets are hard but played with some Sony/ARRI raw files the other day I now have a more sympathy with the post moaning I hear)
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  3. #23  
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    Wow Michel so only 1/3 of a stop discounting the new cal?
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  4. #24  
    Senior Member AndreeMarkefors's Avatar
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    Hi Phil,

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    RED Monstro: 17+ stops of Total Captured Dynamic Range, Usable Stops likely around 16-ish for those who do that.
    What I'm saying is that the world only deals with usable stops. If you're seeing a 15-16 split, I'd say what you posted here supports that.

    So, Mostro: 15 to 16 stops of DR then, and that's what's being communicated from now on?




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    Anecdotally: It doesn't matter to me how much DR Monstro actually has. The more, the better. But it's never too late to start to under promise and over deliver. The alternative never worked well in the long run, I think.
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  5. #25  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Wilganowski View Post
    Wow Michel so only 1/3 of a stop discounting the new cal?
    ... not sure I completely understand... it is 1 stop brighter at the same ISO but I see it as another 1/3 o top of that.. basically a big sensitivity change..
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  6. #26  
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    Sounds very similar to Helium, just without the additional 1/3 stop, as Helium has the same new calibration. At 8k Helium is the same size as Dragon 6k, so then there is one stop difference between 8k Helium and 8k Monstro as far as depth of field, and a small amount of difference in dynamic range as I understand this discussion? Also, I don't completely get the characterizing dynamic range at iso 12,800 which nobody ever uses, even 6400. For both Helium and Monstro the "standard" is 800, so this really should be the basis of that determination. I do get it that with Helium it gets noisy in the shadows much above ISO 800 but looks good up to ISO 1600 when ultimately delivering 2k or 4k whereas with Monstro this could be pushed another half or maybe full stop. Will be much more interested in the color comparison between the two.
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  7. #27  
    Senior Member AndreeMarkefors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lindsay View Post
    ... not sure I completely understand... it is 1 stop brighter at the same ISO but I see it as another 1/3 o top of that.. basically a big sensitivity change..
    The re-calibration was needed so that the exposure triangle (aperture-shutter-ISO) for RED resulted in the correct exposure value, with appropriate brightness in relation to other tools based on the same universal system—such as light meters. It seems that until the re-calibration, RED's EV has been slightly 'pulled' leading to darker images with less visible noise.

    Now, with the re-calibration, you'll get correct image brightness. But you'll also get ISO1600 noise at ISO800. That's my interpretation at least.
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  8. #28  
    Senior Member Tommaso Alvisi's Avatar
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    Has the new calibration been applied since firmware 7 on just Helium and Monstro, right?

    Or on DSMC2 Dragon too???
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  9. #29  
    Phil could you please share a link to a R3d snapshot of the xyla chart? Thanks so much for putting the time into these tests!
    http://imdb.com/name/nm4689030/
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  10. #30  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreeMarkefors View Post

    Now, with the re-calibration, you'll get correct image brightness. But you'll also get ISO1600 noise at ISO800. That's my interpretation at least.
    Monstro old calibration 1600 is basically without noise... especially a 8k for 4/2k finish..
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