Thread: Copper Bones - RED Monstro - Low Light Test

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  1. #1 Copper Bones - RED Monstro - Low Light Test 
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    In the spirit of the "Leo @ ISO 2000" shot by David Fincher and Jeff Cronenweth way back in February 2010 on Mysterium-X, here's a little nod to one of my favorite films shot on RED Monstro.

    Here's a low light test using IPP2 and the new ISO Calibration. This was shot at ISO 1000, which under previous calibration would be considered ISO 2000 in terms of general brightness.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcfbCylXdG4

    If you'd like to see not-so-web-compressed version, here's a UHD 4K ProRes 422 HQ.
    http://www.phfx.com/temp/phfx_copper...wLightTest.zip

    Also, let me know what you'd like to know about Monstro. I've shot Xylas, measured Dynamic Range Precisely, run tricky lighting tests, and generally have been stress testing it a lot in between shoots.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Chris Kennedy's Avatar
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    Not too shabby! Thanks for all you do Phil!

    Would've been a bit interesting to have done the same thing with a Helium for comparison
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  3. #3  
    Awesome Phil!

    I'd be interested to know where you like to place skin tones (according to the gioscope) on Monster and Helium?? Does it change in daylight vs dark interior etc?

    Agree with Chris, thanks for doing all that you do,

    Branlin
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  4. #4  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Kennedy View Post
    Not too shabby! Thanks for all you do Phil!

    Would've been a bit interesting to have done the same thing with a Helium for comparison
    Thanks Chris!

    I did this test back in October of 2017:

    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...nstro-Thoughts

    And we actually just screened this footage at Fotokem thanks to Peter Collister, ASC.

    The end result of all of this is I've upgraded both of my cameras to Monstro 8K VV (Dragon 8K VV and Helium 8K S35). This was a personal choice as well as a technical one as I'm mostly working with 8K large format

    RED in my opinion has done this very "correctly" in relationship to common motion picture film formats and resolution to film format relevance.

    Let me give you the general answer regard Monstr, Dragon, and Helium that I see:


    For Spherical Lens Acquisition:

    VV Filming:
    - Monstro & Dragon 8K at up to 60fps max (75fps WS) (8K VV Dragon is a rare beast)
    - Helium N/A

    S35+ Filming
    - Helium 8K Resolution at up to 60fps max (75fps WS)
    - Monstro & Dragon 6K Resolution at 80fps max (100fps WS)

    S35 Shooting
    - Helium 7K Resolution at up to 68fps max (85fps WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 7.5K at 80fps
    - Dragon/Monstro 5K Resolution at 96fps max (120fps WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 5.5K at 109fps

    S16 Shooting
    - Helium 3.5K at up to 138fps max (172 WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 4K at 150fps
    - Dragon/Monstro 2.5K at up to 192fps max (237 WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 3K at 200fps


    For Anamorphic Lens Acquisition:

    Things are also interesting for those who are interested in anamorphic filmmaking. For Super 35mm motion picture film there are two common formats for the common 2X and 1.3X anamorphic workflows. Super 35mm Full Aperture and Academy 35mm.

    For Monstro and Dragon 8K VV at their max resolution and vertical format size you actually have a format that is slightly taller than Super 35mm Full Aperture 4-perf and notably taller than Academy 35mm. Some 2X and 1.3X metamorphic lenses will cover this larger format and it's very interesting to explore. Also, less common large format 1.25X anamorphic glass plays rather well with this particular sensor size. At this resolution you'd have a fax frame rate of 60 fps.

    For a better true analogue to full height Super 35mm Full Aperture you would use the maximum height of the sensor at 7K resolution for a max frame rate of 68 fps. For Academy 35mm anamorphic, you would be tapping into the maximum height of the 6K format with a max frame of 80 fps.

    And that alludes to the difference between Helium 8K and Monstro/Dragon 8K as the sensor height is indeed smaller than Super 35mm Full Aperture, but with Helium at 8K resolution you do indeed have full coverage of Academy 35mm for common 2X and 1.3 lenses with a max frame rate of 60fps.

    Something to note is with 2X Anamorphic Glass on both Monstro and Helium at full 8K resolution you produce a final resolution of 5184x2160 via "squashed method" (or 10368x4320 for UnSqueezed or 80% UnSqueezed 8294x3456) making this suitable for most modern 4K delivery standards.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  5. #5  
    Member William Tracy Babcock's Avatar
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    I'd love to know the results of the DR Test and how it handles highlights in general. Specifically how it compares to Helium & ALEV III. The low light examples posted here and elsewhere have been impressive but I've yet to see how it stacks up on DR & color fidelity.


    Trying to make a decision on the upgrade currently, and can't justify doing so if it's not exceeding a competitor's 8 year old sensor...
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  6. #6  
    REDuser Sponsor Martin Stevens's Avatar
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    I love reading your posts Phil. Great stuff.

    Where did you get the big matches? Also, what filter(s) on lens?

    :)
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  7. #7  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Branlin Shockey View Post
    Awesome Phil!

    I'd be interested to know where you like to place skin tones (according to the gioscope) on Monster and Helium?? Does it change in daylight vs dark interior etc?

    Agree with Chris, thanks for doing all that you do,

    Branlin
    Thanks Branlin. Well there's an "answer" that I would describe is at key, so basically in the IRE range of 61-70 for typical caucasian skin. For me knowing where 18% gray is more important as I base everything off of that with my exposure logic and doesn't vary as much tonally as skin, so IRE 41-48 generally for normal shooting.

    However, it is far more nuanced than that in narrative terms. There's reasons to shoot over or under key and/or light/expose accordingly. For instance this is a dark scene and Eric is about 1 stop under, which I would do for a dark mood/feel such as this. I had more room on the lens for sure and I also could push the ISO if need be, but this is how I lit and exposed for it.

    If I was shooting talking head interviews for corporate or a standard interior though, get used to 18% gray landing in that 41-48 range.


    Quote Originally Posted by William Tracy Babcock View Post
    I'd love to know the results of the DR Test and how it handles highlights in general. Specifically how it compares to Helium & ALEV III. The low light examples posted here and elsewhere have been impressive but I've yet to see how it stacks up on DR & color fidelity.

    Trying to make a decision on the upgrade currently, and can't justify doing so if it's not exceeding a competitor's 8 year old sensor...
    Xyla it is. I'll upload them tomorrow. Just a side note RED now has 3 sensor technologies that have surpased the AlevIII in variety of ways. Back when this was a Mysterium and Mysterium-X fight the argument between the two systems was much more of a boxing match, but from Dragon on you have something that has more Total Captured Dynamic Range, is cleaner in low light, more color, and higher resolution. That said if you like the general aesthetics tied to the AlevIII, than that's your preference.

    Dragon, Monstro, and Helium all meet or exceed motion picture film as well on those levels, but again look aesthetic and feel are a thing.

    The biggest questions for people looking at Helium or Monstro at the moment are:
    - Do you want a large format VistaVision image plane?
    - Do you want 8K resolution within Super 35mm?

    Outside of that, Monstro is indeed more sensitive in low light than Helium, I think it's a smidge over a stop. Monstro is about 1 stop better than Dragon. Gemini should have about 1 full stop more sensitivity on Monstro for that matter.

    That's a lot of wiggle over "about 1 stop", but what you are are looking at for all 3 of those sensors is 16-17+ stops of Total Captured Dynamic Range.

    I'll certainly dig into this more once I prep the graphics.
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    Red Dragon
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  8. #8  
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    how r the highlights compared to dragon?? and the highlight rolloff..........i have seen some videos and footages and i am impressed but i would like to know ur opinion............
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  9. #9  
    Member antoine carpentier's Avatar
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    Thanks Phill for your amazing work!
    I created a thread where I asked for a helium S35 VS monstro S35. Can you tell us if we definitely won’t loose quality (i mean noise floor/texture, not resolution) if we choose to shoot S35 on monstro compared to helium? Or I have to buy both sensors to shoot VV and S35...
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  10. #10  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Stevens View Post
    I love reading your posts Phil. Great stuff.

    Where did you get the big matches? Also, what filter(s) on lens?

    :)
    Oooh. Matches will be a hard one. I bought probably 30 packs of those ages ago. They are about twice the length and occasionally have some sparkle to them on strike. Oddly they are unlabeled. I'll see if I can figure out where they came from.

    No filter on the lens, but I added a smidge of haze in the room for atmosphere, the dust also helped a bit. The flickering fire source came from one of my trusty Magic Gadgets Flicker Boxes. Key light was lantern with candle side fill and rim was a gelled CTB daylight source of a light that will be announced soon, but dimmed to like literally no output.

    Something to note if you're down there in the 2500-3500K area and adding blue in particular to any camera these days, might be a good idea to use a filter or gel daylight sources to fill up more of the optimal color range. This was partially a stress test at 3500K with a dominant blue rim and background and I would say if shot slightly differently I could net a much cleaner image. This is true for any camera dealing with the lower or higher end of the color temperature range.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rohan B View Post
    how r the highlights compared to dragon?? and the highlight rolloff..........i have seen some videos and footages and i am impressed but i would like to know ur opinion............
    Good. Yet different. Dragon and Monstro on a fundamental level are slightly different. Some of the big differences can be seen in the tightness of the noise pattern in shadows on Monstro, which alludes to cleaner and "more" color. And also interestingly enough on the extreme side there's less artifacting down there. Highlights can be retained and rolled off similarly, but it's a slightly different feel. Not a bad thing IMO as you are netting a better image along the way.


    Quote Originally Posted by antoine carpentier View Post
    Thanks Phill for your amazing work!
    I created a thread where I asked for a helium S35 VS monstro S35. Can you tell us if we definitely won’t loose quality (i mean noise floor/texture, not resolution) if we choose to shoot S35 on monstro compared to helium? Or I have to buy both sensors to shoot VV and S35...
    I can say safely that Monstro is more sensitive than Helium if we're talking about where the noise floor comes into play and how much Monstro sees down there. That has nothing to do with the resolution, but rather the sensor design itself. It's about a 1 stop, maybe a hair more difference. Hard to truly quantify. You don't "need" to buy both sensors, but if you want 8K in S35 that's where Helium shows a lot of it's strengths. You would be around 6K on Monstro in comparison.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies, 1X RED Komodo, and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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