Thread: Exposure / Noise Epic-W problems - help is welcome

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  1. #1 Epic-W exposure / noise problems - help is welcome 
    Junior Member Raphael Maier's Avatar
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    Hey guys!

    I've read many tips and tricks, watched many videos all around the RED universe and lastly did some proper blackshading sessions.
    But I am still getting that nitty gritty noise in my footage. Maybe I just don't get the concept behind all that - maybe I am an idiot. Help would be very welcome.

    This footage (.R3D and .mp4 included) -> DROPBOX was shot with EPIC-W (v7.0.1) ISO 800, 25 fps , 180°/50 shutter, manual blackshade for 1/50, 40°C sensor, IPP2 in use, Sigma 18-35 1.8, 6K WS 10:1

    Some of the low light tests feature more challenging light situations with better results for example:

    https://vimeo.com/204989672
    https://vimeo.com/227493065
    https://vimeo.com/189478583
    https://vimeo.com/188865905


    I am very looking forward to some tips from you! Maybe I am just too dumb. Thanks in advance. :)

    (yes I know that shooting in 8K gives better results - but for some projects I can't shoot 8K)
    Last edited by Raphael Maier; 02-06-2018 at 01:03 PM.
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  2. #2  
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    Hey buddy,

    I'm the one who filmed the first video (stater bros) test. For some reason, I recently upgraded to v7.0.1 and I have realized my blacks are a little more noisy than they used to be and I don't know why.


    :/
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Chris Kennedy's Avatar
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    How did you go about your blackshade calibration? Did you bring the camera/sensor up to your target temperature before the blackshade? Or did you do a blackshade immediately after booting up your camera (you shouldn't do)?

    Were those settings more or less the same that you blaskshaded to? (sensor/core temps and exposure?) Within 15°C or 1/2 of a second above/below your shutter's exposure time?

    I've also found that shooting lower compressions give me a bit better noise performance (try 6:1-8:1)


    RED has some documentation which would better explain Black Shading and shooting in low light:
    http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/bla...ng-calibration
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiM14Hni3nI&t=107s

    Hope that helps! Think everyone at first gets confused/unsure about blackshading, what it is, how to optimally do it for your shooting style/conditions, etc.
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  4. #4  
    Junior Member Raphael Maier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Miro View Post
    Hey buddy,

    I'm the one who filmed the first video (stater bros) test. For some reason, I recently upgraded to v7.0.1 and I have realized my blacks are a little more noisy than they used to be and I don't know why.

    :/
    that doesn't sound very good :( btw the test looks very nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Kennedy View Post
    How did you go about your blackshade calibration? Did you bring the camera/sensor up to your target temperature before the blackshade? Or did you do a blackshade immediately after booting up your camera (you shouldn't do)?

    Were those settings more or less the same that you blaskshaded to? (sensor/core temps and exposure?) Within 15°C or 1/2 of a second above/below your shutter's exposure time?

    I've also found that shooting lower compressions give me a bit better noise performance (try 6:1-8:1)


    RED has some documentation which would better explain Black Shading and shooting in low light:
    http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/bla...ng-calibration
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiM14Hni3nI&t=107s

    Hope that helps! Think everyone at first gets confused/unsure about blackshading, what it is, how to optimally do it for your shooting style/conditions, etc.
    Yes camera and sensor were at target temp. The settings were absolutely the same as which I was blackshading to. I've also got some different calibration maps for different shutter times. Same result.
    I`ve checked the video and the RED 101 a several times. I just can't get it right... :(
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    Yeah you shouldn't be filming at 10:1 on 6k because it's cropped. I would shoot the lowest possible compression as you start to crop down your sensor. I haven't gotten the extreme noise you're looking at, but I think I might have noticed a little bit more sense the new upgrade.. Would like to see a test done or if someone else is having the same issues.

    :)
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member Fabricio Morato's Avatar
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    Don't forget about the new ISO changes in recent firmware (to match light meters). Don't know if you have it enabled or not, but if enabled it will give you noise as a one stop higher ISO. Looking at your mp4 it seems consistent to what I get on ISO 1600 (old calibration, I'm still on V6 firmware).
    Try shooting ISO 400 and see if it matches closely the exemples you posted.
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    Senior Member Chris Kennedy's Avatar
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    I'm no colorist but looking at the r3d it looks a bit underexposed-there still was quite a bit of room in the highlights. Most digital sensors strive for light and especially when your cropping the sensor you'd risk noisier images-especially at a high compression like you were shooting. Like in the youtube video I linked to said, consider exposing to a brighter exposure and shooting at a lower ISO to create the look your going for.

    Try again with more lights, less compression, and in 8k (just for a test since you apparently won't shoot 8k for some projects).

    If you absolutely can't shoot in 8k for certain projects have you considered shooting in 8k and a 4k proxy and editing with the proxy instead of the r3d?
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Miro View Post
    Yeah you shouldn't be filming at 10:1 on 6k because it's cropped. I would shoot the lowest possible compression as you start to crop down your sensor. I haven't gotten the extreme noise you're looking at, but I think I might have noticed a little bit more sense the new upgrade.. Would like to see a test done or if someone else is having the same issues.

    :)
    What does compression have to do with noise?
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    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    What does compression have to do with noise?
    At higher ISO ranges in particular and higher compression ratios it can "enhance the energy" of it on a visual level as it encodes chunkier.

    That said, you shouldn't have any real issues in the 5:1-12:1 range most of the time if you're oversampled for sure. Going 4K for 4K or even 5K for 4K, I'd recommend as low as you can go.
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Aaron Lochert's Avatar
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    It's very different to compare your untouched raw 6K 10:1 clip to a graded (except for one) 8K clip of unknown compression downscaled to 4K and then compressed to hell on Vimeo.

    Also, ISO 800 on the newest firmware (without intervening in the settings) is one stop brighter on screen than before, making noise one stop more apparent. So what you're shooting today is the same brightness as yesterday's 1600.

    At 1:1 pixels under similar conditions your camera seems pretty much in line with my camera.

    For dead clean low key stuff, I shoot ISO 250-320 on the current ISO calibration. Otherwise, I'll shoot 500-800 for most other scenarios.

    I typically run a temporal denoise and then re-grain anyway. I like texture so that my eyes have something to latch onto, but prefer it to be not so digital-ish. Your clip cleans up just fine in this regard.

    Edit:
    Here's a 100% punch-in on a 4K project what noise reduction and adding grain back in can do.
    Last edited by Aaron Lochert; 02-08-2018 at 01:48 AM.
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