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  1. #471  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Nagel View Post
    I always look up the cams and lenses - cams (--> sensor) are more important when it comes to certain characteristics that u can easily identify and then find again in other movies using the same cams... (because most of the big productions do use the same high-end lenses on all cams)

    it can be tricky - I would not blame the cam at all initially, grading plays a huge part (and/or what u dig out of the raw)... the quality of light being used, and RED needs good light sources...

    Bay for example always makes RED footage work quite nicely, although repeatedly some of his movies have (sometimes) very orange skin tones...

    Guardians looked great as well...

    Soderberg is a prime example how bad RED footage can look if it does not get dedicated treatment.

    Alexa is not perfect, that's for sure. Also, accompanying color science is a very important factor.

    Thats bull.

    Arri is possibly used more in high budget commercials and films. But the reasons you list are both old and not really valid. Bayham has orange skin tones even on those shots he capture on 70mm film. And for Söderbergs colors, sorry for saying so, they been bad even when he was shooting film. So what you refer to is taste, peoples knowhow, lights etc but not the performance of the different cameras.

    And yes, it´s of course so that filmmakers in general also have taste when it comes to camera gear. DP´s that shoot the big features are usually older, they are nostalgic about celluloid and the tools they used for working with film. And further more they are usually old enough so they are normally not saying, "thats so cool!" when they see the skull logo and the word weapon engraved on a red cam, on the contrary. Skate kids on the other hand that enters the industry and want to make big films really like the skull logo... Those kids are huge in numbers and they shoot and post stuff on the web that usually looks quite bad, as those kids don't have the lightning experience, nor budget for the arri sky panels when they shoot.

    And when those kids shoot something and it does not look like their hollywood reference, they point at the camera and think thats what is at fault.


    I work with alexa and red mixed footage all the time as its quite normal the camera crew prefer Alexa but then I also need the resolution, speed, HDRx and other qualities of the imagery that only red has.

    Here is a commercial we just made, shot with 3 alexas, 2 mini and 1 studio then also some shots in there I shot on helium. Please as you are so good at telling the difference between Arri and red, look it trough and let us know what shots where RED shots.

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  2. #472  
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    Benckert,

    there's a reason I own RED. U should maybe read posts properly. But at least I know what I own. ;-)

    Arri is what it is. Spade is a spade.

    U can make up ur explanations and some of that is true, but other stuff is just fantasy.

    Also, never said Soderberg was a great colorist and never said Bay didn't have weird skin tones on film.... absolutely unsure what ur point is.... (?)


    My point is: Arri out of cam is more pleasing.

    Why YOU personally shoot RED for (HDRx etc) I don't care, I know why I shoot it.


    I always said feature wise RED is unbeaten. Color wise (out of the box) it is 4th place, maybe with IPP2 properly in pipeline 3rd place. 8 years too late. 2 years in beta.

    That's the reality. We all been through it together.

    Never said RED is not usable or cannot look great.

    Whatever u have to tell urself to justify ur investment... please do share... ;-)))
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  3. #473  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Nagel View Post
    while the Dxo thingy is a nice marketing blurb for RED, only everybody knows Dxo - and their ratings - has been BS for a loooong time... and I don't know any DP that would choose a cam based on a Dxo rating...
    Only beacuse it is a rating or what?

    Also, clearly Dxo ratings do not transfer at all to pleasing images...
    You know, there are colorists and then there are colorists.


    So, u're saying u don't like the look of Alev III and accompanying color science ?
    Meh...ALEV's ok... if you're out of MONSTROs.

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  4. #474  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Šabović Adis View Post
    Meh...ALEV's ok... if you're out of MONSTROs.
    buddy... it is not only the sensor, it is the color science... that's the secret sauce...

    Monstro, yeah def look forward to more footage from that sensor...



    Quote Originally Posted by Šabović Adis View Post
    You know, there are colorists and then there are colorists.
    see... that's a great line. And I couldn't agree more. Def true.

    the problem with this is (in the context of this conversation), that u're basically saying that 99% of the colorists who worked on the movies shot on RED (incl. indies, straight to disc, festivals etc) are not good because those movies did not look as good as movies shot on Alexa (general statement, there are clearly exceptions).

    Now RED footage needs more tweaks usually, but that's quite a statement. U know - just to be fair to those peeps - the cam and the color science may play a part in it ;-)

    Or maybe these peeps don't shoot the cam correctly... or not enough time in post... many reason why we end up where we end up.
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  5. #475  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Here is a commercial we just made, shot with 3 alexas, 2 mini and 1 studio then also some shots in there I shot on helium. Please as you are so good at telling the difference between Arri and red, look it trough and let us know what shots where RED shots.

    looks good color wise - from what one can tell considering it's a film noir with a felt gamma of 3.6.... ;-) U could put a cell phone shot in there and hide problems in the dark grade...

    Amateur camera shake on all shots inside the house. no money for a tripod ?... also, a 3.18 mins commercial ?


    I see your point though... it is quite an achievement that a 8K camera from 2016 manages to seamlessly intercut with a 2.8K cam from 2010 - on a 1080p delivery. I see the light now.

    I'm gonna have to think about this a for a while.


    why don't u take ur Helium 8K and compare it against Alexa65 @ 6.5K... u still got 1.5Ks more... I know the result.


    oh yeah.... why did u shoot the commercial on 6x Arris if ur Helium is the better cam ?
    Last edited by Mike Nagel; 12-06-2017 at 08:46 PM.
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  6. #476  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Nagel View Post
    buddy... it is not only the sensor, it is the color science... that's the secret sauce...

    Monstro, yeah def look forward to more footage from that sensor...

    Yes, it is! We're talking sensors now, MONSTRO to be exact.

    And I have to say, I am already impressed by this new piece of photon-catcher.

    see... that's a great line. And I couldn't agree more. Def true.

    the problem with this is (in the context of this conversation), that u're basically saying that 99% of the colorists who worked on the movies shot on RED (incl. indies, straight to disc, festivals etc) are not good because those movies did not look as good as movies shot on Alexa (general statement, there are clearly exceptions).
    I have no clue as to what's shot on what (and, honestly, I don't care)...unless I look up for it. And when I do (and I do it only because I liked the TITLE, not skintones - they're all ****ed up! ), all I see is ALEXA... and RED, occasionally.

    Now RED footage needs more tweaks usually, but that's quite a statement. U know - just to be fair to those peeps - the cam and the color science may play a part in it ;-)

    Or maybe these peeps don't shoot the cam correctly... or not enough time in post... many reason why we end up where we end up.
    Yup!
    Leave ALEXA's footage as is - not quite right. Leave RED's - the same. And if we are to turn knobs then we have to turn the goddamn knobs, and that's the whole point. That's all I'm sayin'.
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    Senior Member David J. Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Thats bull.

    Arri is possibly used more in high budget commercials and films. But the reasons you list are both old and not really valid. Bayham has orange skin tones even on those shots he capture on 70mm film. And for Söderbergs colors, sorry for saying so, they been bad even when he was shooting film. So what you refer to is taste, peoples knowhow, lights etc but not the performance of the different cameras.

    And yes, it´s of course so that filmmakers in general also have taste when it comes to camera gear. DP´s that shoot the big features are usually older, they are nostalgic about celluloid and the tools they used for working with film. And further more they are usually old enough so they are normally not saying, "thats so cool!" when they see the skull logo and the word weapon engraved on a red cam, on the contrary. Skate kids on the other hand that enters the industry and want to make big films really like the skull logo... Those kids are huge in numbers and they shoot and post stuff on the web that usually looks quite bad, as those kids don't have the lightning experience, nor budget for the arri sky panels when they shoot.

    And when those kids shoot something and it does not look like their hollywood reference, they point at the camera and think thats what is at fault.


    I work with alexa and red mixed footage all the time as its quite normal the camera crew prefer Alexa but then I also need the resolution, speed, HDRx and other qualities of the imagery that only red has.

    Here is a commercial we just made, shot with 3 alexas, 2 mini and 1 studio then also some shots in there I shot on helium. Please as you are so good at telling the difference between Arri and red, look it trough and let us know what shots where RED shots.

    You're right, I can't tell, but I'd like to guess. Is it the caves where the Helium was used?
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  8. #478  
    Senior Member Mathias Erichsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Thats bull.

    Arri is possibly used more in high budget commercials and films. But the reasons you list are both old and not really valid. Bayham has orange skin tones even on those shots he capture on 70mm film. And for Söderbergs colors, sorry for saying so, they been bad even when he was shooting film. So what you refer to is taste, peoples knowhow, lights etc but not the performance of the different cameras.

    And yes, it´s of course so that filmmakers in general also have taste when it comes to camera gear. DP´s that shoot the big features are usually older, they are nostalgic about celluloid and the tools they used for working with film. And further more they are usually old enough so they are normally not saying, "thats so cool!" when they see the skull logo and the word weapon engraved on a red cam, on the contrary. Skate kids on the other hand that enters the industry and want to make big films really like the skull logo... Those kids are huge in numbers and they shoot and post stuff on the web that usually looks quite bad, as those kids don't have the lightning experience, nor budget for the arri sky panels when they shoot.

    And when those kids shoot something and it does not look like their hollywood reference, they point at the camera and think thats what is at fault.


    I work with alexa and red mixed footage all the time as its quite normal the camera crew prefer Alexa but then I also need the resolution, speed, HDRx and other qualities of the imagery that only red has.

    Here is a commercial we just made, shot with 3 alexas, 2 mini and 1 studio then also some shots in there I shot on helium. Please as you are so good at telling the difference between Arri and red, look it trough and let us know what shots where RED shots.

    WOW! This commercial it amazing!! :) What lenses did you shoot it on?
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  9. #479  
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    Fantastic piece of work Björn
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  10. #480  
    Senior Member Chris Jordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David J. Buchanan View Post
    This conversation is very fascinating but one that has gone on time and time again, but still I wonder is it true that Alexa has this great of IQ? I've been doing a lot of research and reading (only cause I'm thinking of switching) on Arri Alexa and I've been seening problems with green, and lots of noise. So it seems they have some, not all, but some of the same problems these RED cams are having.

    A long time ago a gaffer said to me, "Dave, Hollywood doesn't care what camera you shoot on." And he's right. They don't. If you can get your camera to work, then more power to you.

    Has anyone here even looked up their favorite cinematic films and seen what cameras and lenses they were shot on? Then the light schematics. It may be more about the light.
    "Hollywood doesn't care what camera you shoot on." Tell that to the more than 60% of my clients who insist on Mini.
    Very frustrating for me, since I LOVE my Helium. But, that speaks volumes. opinions aside, facts are facts.
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