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  1. #21  
    hi - i'm an editor......have been doing this for about 15 years.

    your biggest problem is that you don't produce a phyiscal medium that we can touch and feel and love. makes us scared.......where do the pretty pictures live? we are strange bunch.

    as for any editors reading this - get with the program!
    our first RED job came with the usual horror stories from all who threw their (and at most times unwelcomed) comments in. it took us about 4 hours to research, sort and build a pipeline for the project. ran like a dream.

    our job is to create stories in whatever learn your tools!

    Team RED - keep pushing the the new toys and the pics are great to work with.

    there.........venting over........i feel better now.....
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member Kip Hewitt's Avatar
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    Jan 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by harryclark View Post
    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Red Team, give us a nice 1080 "clean" output so that these goofy jobs can benefit from the Red One. Forget about the preview bus... What about a hardware module that replaces the CF module on the side and does a real-time, high-quality debayer with 4:4:4 Dual Link HD-SDI? What about partnering with Sony, or Panasonic, or AJA on this one?
    I've lost at least a dozen rentals this way since getting the camera. Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
    I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...

    I totally understand where you are coming from. I too have lost a few good jobs because of a nervous post-production team. But I have also won just as many by putting in the long hours convincing producers/editors that the post workflow is sound. I go to their office, I install RedAlert, and I walk them through the whole process step by step.

    After the shoot wraps I be sure to make myself available for any tech support assistance they may need. Which, surprisingly, is never a big deal.

    RED has done a pretty stand-up job giving us the tools to compete in the real world. I just think it's the least we can do to get out there and do a little missionary work now and again.

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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Prevette View Post
    the most impressive and simplest ways to deal with stuff like this is to arrange a quick demo. Anyone that thinks the Red workflow is anything short of amazing just doesnt know what they are looking at. I've been able to set up effective onset editing several times for clients of differing levels and garnished nothing but awe from clients agencies and post houses. it's just not as complicated as they think it is.
    Demos are definitely the way to go. The only problem I've had with doing demos is that I can't always demo to the right people. Post people -- editors, colorists, are the ones that need to show up to see how it works and they're the ones who typically don't show up, usually in the wake of some lame excuse. Only to later be the ones who complain about RED throughout the project. On the brighter side of things, the ones who take a moment and learn how it works, quickly become converts.

    I'm not very high up on the ladder of production, I kinda consider myself a bottom-feeder. But I've witnessed incomprehensible amounts of stupidity. Stupid follows money like a little lost puppy that you can't break from pissing on your nice persian rug. ...It's been that way with any industry I've ever involved myself in.
    - Jeff Kilgroe
    - Applied Visual Technologies, LLC | RojoMojo
    - Just me and my 8K Monstro VV kicking ass.
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  4. #24  
    Senior Member Harry Clark's Avatar
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    Dec 2006
    You're right. I have been a crummy evangalist. But my style is a bit more passive; I offer up the Red One, say how great it is, and then get the call, "well, the post team says they've had trouble with Red" and I back off. D-21? OK, whatever. My HDX-900 with my Pro-35? OK, whatever.
    I love the Red One. I don't want to shoot with anything else, really I don't. But I can't just be the "Red Guy". It's their project; it's their money; it's their call.
    In one year we'll all be laughing about it. But for now, it sometimes burns me. And it's not fair.
    But like I said, I'm over it. ;)
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by harryclark View Post
    D-21? OK, whatever. My HDX-900 with my Pro-35? OK, whatever.
    I love the Red One. I don't want to shoot with anything else, really I don't. But I can't just be the "Red Guy". It's their project; it's their money; it's their call.
    In one year we'll all be laughing about it. But for now, it sometimes burns me. And it's not fair.
    But like I said, I'm over it. ;)
    Harry -

    everyone that I know that knows you, likes to work with you - you work all the time - you own an arsenal of gear - you are doing just fine.

    By the time we have our Epics - we'll swap these stories and laugh our asses off -

    you know, I remember very clearly - when people were terrified to edit "non-linear" - and everybody talked about how editing with a computer would "ruin" the art of editing - Lightworks/Avid - it was DRAMA -
    Mark L. Pederson
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Allen View Post
    The Fotokem bashing is pretty hilarious.

    Be aware that there is a difference between their student tour division and the guys doing the high end DI projects.

    I too did NOT have a good experience with Fotokem as a student (flex file nightmares, crummy looking dailies, etc). The tour guy was patronizing too.

    Yes, Fotokem is notorious for not treating students all that well. (I gotta say, I loved Deluxe and their student price beat Fotokem's to boot). Your point, about the difference between the work they do for students and their high end stuff is well-taken though.

    That said, people who had come on set, seen the Red working, seen what the footage looked like, and had become instant fans, left that tour with serious second doubts. It can be frustrating...
    That's right. My avatar was shot using the Red.
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  7. #27  
    Moderator David Battistella's Avatar
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    Apr 2007
    Florence, Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by Offhollywood View Post

    Most of the time, we just tell people now, "forget everything you heard, everything you read, this is how we would handle your project, and these are you options."

    They stop kicking and screaming pretty quickly when they see how simple it can be.
    This is absolutely true. RED is actually really simple, it's everyone who has been told what it is instead of actually "seeing" how wonderful the system is that seem to be a problem.

    We've spent MANY MANY hours trying to let people in this city SEE and UNDERSTAND how excellent the system is.

    Post Workflow is the NUMBER ONE issue that everyone wants to know about and because it is a bit different than what people are used to. If the RED had a simple clean feed out the HD SDI port it would shut a lot of people up.

    Most people are taking a video tap out recording it and doing some rough edits or looking at stuff for composting. Some think it is still simpler to do this from other cameras. If RED sent a CLEAN output option out the side of the camera it would help solve some of these issues.

    I am not agreeing with the people who demand this and I am very confident about putting the RED IN ANY SITUATION, it's just that not everyone is as forward thinking as many of the minds here.

    "Colors are the wounds of light."
    -William Blake
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart English View Post
    Actually, on Build 16, that's exactly what the camera playback is doing.. creating 1080p from the recorded .R3D files. On Build 15 and earlier its limited to 720p playback from the .R3D files. The QuickTime files are not used by the camera, they are generated by the camera for use by QuickTime enabled computer systems.
    So the live image is 720P but the played-back image is 1080P now with Build 16? Why isn't the live image also 1080P then?
    David Mullen, ASC
    Los Angeles
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member david farland's Avatar
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    Dec 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by David Mullen ASC View Post
    Why isn't the live image also 1080P then?
    Everyone asks that!!
    I guess once build 16 wears off, people will renew their requests for this....know I will. There was a hint it was in the pipeline.
    But your other point of how much noise and how much it's debayered is as important.
    Obviously (hopefully) high on Red's design list for this area.

    So, will the live image be 1080p in build 17?

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  10.   Click here to go to the next RED TEAM post in this thread.
    "The Mouth" TedRed's Avatar
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    Dec 2007
    This all seems very strange to me, when you can shoot RED, and load the CF card media onto a Vanilla Mac Pro, or Mac Book Pro, and do an offline edit right on the set with the Proxies, without any rendering at all. I see jobs do this all the time, during breaks they load up footage and play it, and sometimes edit, time permitting. On a 17" MBP they can play the 1k files in real time and edit those -the quality is fine, and if they want they can render out to ProRes to see higher quality. And if they have a tower with a small Raid attached and a Kona 3 card they can edit the 2k and get very good quality images to cut with right away... It's just a education issue that people don't think this can be done, and feel they need 1080p tape recording on the set to do an edit. I spend part of almost every day on the education front... but with the amount of RED shooting, it always seems like there is more needed... We need more evangelsts to show the studios, and agency producers how this works. I can not tell you how many meetings I've had to "show people the light" it's fun when they get it.

    + Ted
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