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  1. #171  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Some add-on fuel to the discussion

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  2. #172  
    Senior Member Joel Arvidsson's Avatar
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    It must be something wrong with my eyes then cause I big difference at close distance=)
    But than again I like to cheat shutter abit to drawback the motionblur if the shoot lets me (no fast panning movements in the shot). Also Im looking forward to 48, 50, 60p would be more common to gain further crisp.

    But, in best of worlds I wish I was an algoritm or something that sensed how much movement it was in shot and played just the right amount a frame needed for filmmakers vision. For slow shots I still like the cinematic 24/25p but for most camera movements and fast moving obejects in film I dearly wish 50-60fps to fight the motion blur alittle.
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  3. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Arvidsson View Post
    But, in best of worlds I wish I was an algoritm or something that sensed how much movement it was in shot and played just the right amount a frame needed for filmmakers vision. For slow shots I still like the cinematic 24/25p but for most camera movements and fast moving obejects in film I dearly wish 50-60fps to fight the motion blur alittle.
    You'd notice the motion discrepancy and it would be distracting.
    Also, shutter differences would affect exposure.
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  4.   This is the last RED TEAM post in this thread.   #174  
    The solution there might be to shoot at high fps and then re-construct the appropriate motion cadence in post from all that data. The other solution could be like the Motion Mount with its temporal anti-aliasing.

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  5. #175  
    I must have a different kind of eyes or something because if I watch 50 or 60 or anything even higher than 25fps I really dislike it. I like 24-25p I watch a lot of stuff rendered out in multiple of speeds and done comparisons even on film positive in a cinema. And no there is nothing in the world that would make me change my mind of that point. And it´s strange if it goes down to 20fps then it simply doesn't not work and if you bring it up to 30fps it looks terrible in my eyes.

    Also I find film projektors to look the best I assume that is the 180 deg shutter on the actual porjector a full black between each frame.

    Also consider when they invented film they did not have any direct limitations to frame rate. They had a huge problem keeping it constant, cameras where hand driven in the beginning and I think the reason they landed on 24fps has a lot to do with the fact that it simply looks better than the other frame rates.

    But again I might be different because people seam to like automatic smooting and all kinds of weird hertz and frame rates. But usually people that I talk to have not really gone in depth in their comparisons.

    And reading movement, those momvements that 25p can not handle. Show me one of such camera move that looks good on cinema. As to me 110 times out of 100, such move does not look good no matter frame rate. It might not be strobbing but still it does not look good when paling or moving the camera on such speed. And I dont mean swish pans looks ugly, I mean that middle speed between slow and fast which you can not use on a constant speed move... if you do such and up the frame rate it will still look really crappy to my eyes.
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  6. #176  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    I must have a different kind of eyes or something because if I watch 50 or 60 or anything even higher than 25fps I really dislike it. I like 24-25p I watch a lot of stuff rendered out in multiple of speeds and done comparisons even on film positive in a cinema. And no there is nothing in the world that would make me change my mind of that point. And it´s strange if it goes down to 20fps then it simply doesn't not work and if you bring it up to 30fps it looks terrible in my eyes.

    Also I find film projektors to look the best I assume that is the 180 deg shutter on the actual porjector a full black between each frame.

    Also consider when they invented film they did not have any direct limitations to frame rate. They had a huge problem keeping it constant, cameras where hand driven in the beginning and I think the reason they landed on 24fps has a lot to do with the fact that it simply looks better than the other frame rates.

    But again I might be different because people seam to like automatic smooting and all kinds of weird hertz and frame rates. But usually people that I talk to have not really gone in depth in their comparisons.

    And reading movement, those momvements that 25p can not handle. Show me one of such camera move that looks good on cinema. As to me 110 times out of 100, such move does not look good no matter frame rate. It might not be strobbing but still it does not look good when paling or moving the camera on such speed. And I dont mean swish pans looks ugly, I mean that middle speed between slow and fast which you can not use on a constant speed move... if you do such and up the frame rate it will still look really crappy to my eyes.

    I think not. I don't know how it's said in English but tromost oka is the main reason, which in turn has much to do with flicker fusion threshold.


    And ther's this:




    a 2 bladed projector shuter, for 48 flikers per second, out of 24 fps, and this:







    a 3 bladed one, for 72 flikers/s.
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  7. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Šabović Adis View Post
    I think not. I don't know how it's said in English but tromost oka is the main reason, which in turn has much to do with flicker fusion threshold.


    And ther's this:




    a 2 bladed projector shuter, for 48 flikers per second, out of 24 fps, and this:







    a 3 bladed one, for 72 flikers/s.
    Well that is if you set the projector to 24p...here in europé the projectors are set to 25p or any frame rate you want really. So butterfly shutter just means the shutter makes a lap every second frame it has nothing to do with how fast you run your projector that is to taste, or to standard or what ever you want to call it. And a lot of projectors are not calibrated I know for a fact a large cinema in stockroom went 245P no matter what if the film was 24p or not. For quite some years. They did not feel like fiddling with the frame rate...
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  8. #178  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Well that is if you set the projector to 24p
    How do you "set" the projector to 24? It's factory set like so.


    ...here in europé the projectors are set to 25p or any frame rate you want really.
    I'm talking film projectors, not video.

    So butterfly shutter just means the shutter makes a lap every second frame it has nothing to do with how fast you run your projector that is to taste, or to standard or what ever you want to call it. And a lot of projectors are not calibrated I know for a fact a large cinema in stockroom went 245P no matter what if the film was 24p or not. For quite some years. They did not feel like fiddling with the frame rate...
    I don't understand this.
    When I say "standard 24 fps", I mean standard, like in "standard 230V" (+- 10%), you don't change that like it's nothing, right?
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  9. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by Šabović Adis View Post
    How do you "set" the projector to 24? It's factory set like so.




    I'm talking film projectors, not video.



    I don't understand this.
    When I say "standard 24 fps", I mean standard, like in "standard 230V" (+- 10%), you don't change that like it's nothing, right?
    I try to explain,

    The projectors have crystal sync just like the cameras. And you can change it. In sweden/stockholm the 35mm Film projectors where set to the standard of 24 fps but a lot of films where actually shot and edited and shown in 25fps in the theaters. And the theaters did not care much and let the setting sit on one of the two no matter frame rate of the film was supposed to be shown in, and you can over / under crank certain projectors quite a bit especially those they use at labs.

    But What Joel says about variable motion blur will be, or is allready possible to certain extent as Graeme explains.
    The day we have "infinite frame rates" we can shoot 360 shutter and in post decide what frames out the frame lengths should be mixed into the frame and also with what weight, that way you have the possibility not only to decide if you want a lot or a little motion blur / shutter speed in post. You can aslo decide if you want it sinus wave or sqare etc. And cameras like phantom etc have well enough frame rate to do this allready today, even though it for sure increase the amount of light neeeded.
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  10. #180  
    Moderator Evin Grant's Avatar
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    FYI, it was sound that forced the industry to adopt 24fps. Before the optical sound track most films we shot in the 18-20fps range which is the lowest frame rate that preserves human persistance of vision. However experiments with sound on film optical stripe determined there wasn't enough resolution for clear audio until 24FPS.
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