Thread: Dragon vs Epic-W and the sensor cropping

Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12
  1. #1 Dragon vs Epic-W and the sensor cropping 
    Hello out there,

    So I was 1 cm away from ordering my upgrade from the Epic Dragon, to the Epic-W Helium camera, when I realised something with sensor cropping.

    I use slow motion a lot in my work, and my Dragon can do slow motion at it's maximum resolution. 6K 75fps. It's great! I understand the Helium is not capable of doing slow motion at 8K, so i'll have to go down to 6K in order to shoot slow motion. Which is fine, but will it then crop the sensor? Because that would be a major issue for me.

    Now I can clearly see how the quality changes when I step it down from 6K to 4K, so i'm wondering if I would have the same feeling when I go from 8K to 6K?

    headache!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member Aaron Lochert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    1,171
    Yes, 6K Helium will record on a smaller sensor area than Dragon at 6K.

    You can compare the two sizes here:

    http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/...&focalLengths=
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    Thanks Aaron.
    That's not the best news for me....
    So the option to shoot slow mo in the highest setting, would be to pay almost 3 times as much and go for the Weapon 8K? Auch....
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    Senior Member Ulf Krentz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    716
    Viktor,
    It is probably not so obvious as it looks. Helium is a new sensor tech and different (cleaner) than dragon. While you definitely loose some physical area Im not sure the Dragon 6K high speed images would be superior to the 6k Helium. Epic-Ws pop up at many places these days, why dont you just rent and test for yourself?
    Cheers

    Ulf
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    Member tobyheslop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sydney, Aust
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor Sloth View Post
    Hello out there,

    Now I can clearly see how the quality changes when I step it down from 6K to 4K, so i'm wondering if I would have the same feeling when I go from 8K to 6K?

    headache!
    I'm in the same boat,
    it's the only thing stopping me from upgrading to Epic-W 8K,
    Only thing stopping me from Helium 8K is that extra $ vs paying for itself in a small windowed world of updates required for every piece of kit these days.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    RED TEAM Stacey Spears's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Sammamish, WA
    Posts
    3,129
    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor Sloth View Post
    Hello out there,

    So I was 1 cm away from ordering my upgrade from the Epic Dragon, to the Epic-W Helium camera, when I realised something with sensor cropping.

    I use slow motion a lot in my work, and my Dragon can do slow motion at it's maximum resolution. 6K 75fps. It's great! I understand the Helium is not capable of doing slow motion at 8K, so i'll have to go down to 6K in order to shoot slow motion. Which is fine, but will it then crop the sensor? Because that would be a major issue for me.

    Now I can clearly see how the quality changes when I step it down from 6K to 4K, so i'm wondering if I would have the same feeling when I go from 8K to 6K?

    headache!
    I don't know what you do and do not know, so I apologize if I say something you already know. :) You can get some level of higher frame rate at full resolution and then you must lower the resolution to increase the frame rate. It is the vertical height / resolution that is the limitation. All of the Red cameras / sensors have done this. With each sensor, the resolution has gone up and the pixel size has gone down.

    EPIC-W and Weapon Helium are similar cameras. The difference, and price, comes at processing power. This includes things like higher frame rate and / or lower compression to name a couple. For some, they can use the EPIC-W day-to-day and then rent when they need higher frame rates.

    I think, just pulling this out of my fourth point of contact, that they knew 8K was important and so was S35 coverage, so they had to go smaller pixels to achieve both.

    Just a side note. When the UHD spec was created, it covered not only 3840x2160, but also 7680x4320. I think these numbers are here to stay. 8K (easier to write than QUHD) is a lot of data to move. For the new Dell 8K display you need to not only use dual DP 1.4, but they also use Display Stream Compression. Just goes to show the sheer amount of data that is 8K.

    I mention all of the above to provide some background on frame rates and 8K. The Weapon VV and Weapon Helium are limited to 60p at full height and 75p if you shoot at 2.40:1, which is reducing the height as I previously mentioned.

    Astro was showing (not actually running) an 8K camera that had a 16K sensor for oversampling last NAB (2016). 8K is the maximum output resolution. Not sure if that is 8192 or 7680. I suspect 7680 They said it was around $1,000,000 for the camera. A million dollars for an 8K camera. When you think about that, EPIC-W is a steal!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    Senior Member Robert Gustafsson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    273
    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor Sloth View Post
    Hello out there,

    So I was 1 cm away from ordering my upgrade from the Epic Dragon, to the Epic-W Helium camera, when I realised something with sensor cropping.

    I use slow motion a lot in my work, and my Dragon can do slow motion at it's maximum resolution. 6K 75fps. It's great! I understand the Helium is not capable of doing slow motion at 8K, so i'll have to go down to 6K in order to shoot slow motion. Which is fine, but will it then crop the sensor? Because that would be a major issue for me.

    Now I can clearly see how the quality changes when I step it down from 6K to 4K, so i'm wondering if I would have the same feeling when I go from 8K to 6K?

    headache!
    I actually find that my Epic-W Helium at 6K 75 fps compared to my old Dragon at 6K 75fps is hard to tell apart quality wise (even though the Epic-W is "windowing in on the sensor" with that framrate.)
    I had the same worries before pulling the trigger on the upgrade but now I'm happy I did. The Epic-W is so much better in many aspects.
    The only problem I had was finding wide glass for high framerate shots in 6K because of the changed FOV. Using good S35 or APS-C glass with 6K Helium works like a charm.
    Last edited by Robert Gustafsson; 04-23-2017 at 02:45 PM.
    RED DSMC2 Helium #1939
    http://treborian.com




    In production: http://radiusthemovie.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    Member Matt Hardy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Lake Tahoe, Ca
    Posts
    47
    What lenses do you use when you speak of wide angles?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    Senior Member JeanChristophe Dupasquier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    159
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hardy View Post
    What lenses do you use when you speak of wide angles?
    Canon 11-24mm f/4 or Sigma 12-24mm f/4 are pretty good non-cine options to start. You might want to use lower ISO and compression when dropping the resolution to 6K or less to avoid noise/grain. I use slowmotion also a lot and the 6K FOV is not as bad as I was thinking at the start.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    Senior Member Russ Fill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    World wide working
    Posts
    1,666
    Loawa 12mm 2.8,
    I had very similar concerns but after seeing the results I feel pretty comfortable with the new camera. And I shoot a lot a 3K to get some of the frame rates I need.
    Epic Forged Monstro (Camera 101)
    Epic X (Tribal)
    mindsetmedia@mac.com
    https://vimeo.com/user4448312
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/russfill/
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts