Thread: Weapon 8K Vs Epic-W: Differences?

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  1. #31  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeb B View Post
    Boy, sure would be cool if RED released a firmware update for Weapon to allow the frame rate increase to include 2K-5K before the September 28th deadline. 240fps @4K would very neato and help cover the $20K premium over the Epic-W.

    So nothing formal on the Weapon v Epic-W future upgrade priority?
    There isn't a firmware update that can change the max readout speed of a sensor. That's a hardware limitation.
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  2. #32  
    Senior Member Zeb B's Avatar
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    Bare with me Phil ;-)

    8K FF @60fps 12:1 = 270mps
    4K FF @120fps 12:1 = 136mps

    Seems to my iggnent self that you could double the 136mps and be at 272mps / 240fps and bamm firmware done. The Helium cams can do 240fps @2K so it can get it off the sensor at that rate. What is the bottleneck or limation so I can understand?
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  3. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeb B View Post
    Bare with me Phil ;-)

    8K FF @60fps 12:1 = 270mps
    4K FF @120fps 12:1 = 136mps

    Seems to my iggnent self that you could double the 136mps and be at 272mps / 240fps and bamm firmware done. The Helium cams can do 240fps @2K so it can get it off the sensor at that rate. What is the bottleneck or limation so I can understand?
    It's not a issue related to bitrate capabilities.
    It's related to how fast the camera hardware is able to read the horizontal pixel lines presented in the recording area of the sensor.
    So you would need different hardware to have a higher sensor readout speed.

    That's how i understand it, someone please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong ;)
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  4. #34  
    Senior Member Zeb B's Avatar
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    . . . but currently both Helium cams can do 300fps 4:1 @2K WS 203mps

    By current specs Helium electronics can:
    Read out data off the sensor to at least 300fps
    Write data to the card to at least 270mps
    The Weapon is rated to 300mps, Epic-W 275mps

    What's the missing element that prevents 240fps @4K 272mps?

    Not trying to be a pest - just trying to become better learned about limitations / potential of this series of awesome cams
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  5. #35  
    Member Finn Möller's Avatar
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    Yeah the Helium 300 FPS readout is for 2048 horizontal pixels (which is a very small part of the sensor, so Helium is not able to read out the whole sensor 300 times per second), but not for 4096 horizontal pixels. I would really love the idea of this, but i don't think there is any chance to see this in real.
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  6. #36  
    Senior Member Zeb B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn Möller View Post
    Yeah the Helium 300 FPS readout is for 2048 horizontal pixels (which is a very small part of the sensor, so Helium is not able to read out the whole sensor 300 times per second), but not for 4096 horizontal pixels. I would really love the idea of this, but i don't think there is any chance to see this in real.
    Makes sense but the fps and data rates are weirdly non-linear between the Weapon and Epic-W. Both cameras become the same at 6K and below, while the Weapon has twice the performance at 6.5K and above. Looks like there's some locked up potential in Weapon that could be released at some point with some refinements to the maths. Maybe there will be a Christmas surprise from RED:

    For Immediate Release - December 14, 2017
    RED is pleased to announce a major performance upgrade for Helium cameras. Existing Weapon owners will receive a free update via firmware allowing 4K @240fps and all Epic-W owners can send in their cams for a full Weapon upgrade for the cost of $20K to get this increased frame rate which is proportionally scaled through all resolutions.


    ;-)
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  7. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeb B View Post
    Looks like there's some locked up potential in Weapon that could be released at some point with some refinements to the maths. Maybe there will be a Christmas surprise from RED:








    Limiting factor:





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  8. #38  
    Senior Member Jacobo Martinez's Avatar
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    Will the sensor swap for the new red line of cameras be something like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=saUTJNaEwdk
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  9. #39  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobo Martinez View Post
    Will the sensor swap for the new red line of cameras be something like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=saUTJNaEwdk
    If we are talking the "current line of cameras", nope. Not at the moment at least. It will require sending the camera into RED for the Sensor Swap Program. It's at the moment only available for Weapon class cameras due to some base hardware differences. RED stores the sensor safely in a clean environment as well.

    RED's sensor swap is a bit more "inside the brain" and there will be a QC attached to it I'm sure before the camera goes out. Specific details haven't been announced just yet, but it's expected the turn around time will be pretty reasonable.

    The advantage of RED's method is your sensor swap is likely happening inside a Class 100 clean room and any sort of badness that could come from field swapping "won't happen". Also that bit of QC I think is useful. Curious to know if RED sets the back focus too with this procedure.

    Sony's method can happen in the field and swaps everything including the mount. It's not clear how susceptible to interference via contamination, i.e. like a stray hair or something, but it is a fast method of swapping the sensor on set.

    As for a "new RED line of cameras", unknown.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies, 1X RED Komodo, and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  10. #40  
    Senior Member Jacobo Martinez's Avatar
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    Thank you Phil, for non US RED Camera Owners, the option of sending the camera for sensor swap is not a practical option due to time and problems with customs.
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