Thread: Cook Anamorphic Lenses & Red S8K Helium Camera

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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Reuben Evans's Avatar
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    This thread is blowing my mind. Maybe one day I'll ascend these heights, but you guys are awesome for having this discussion here for us to learn about the next level.
    Reuben Evans
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  2. #22  
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    Well David I will say it aging, your Insight and Contribution to Cinematography and this “red.user” web site is without equal, you have my humble respect.

    I’m just talking about another S35 alternative Helium Sensor that can be created on a limited version, that can be offered to those that have specifically expressed an interest, and all the Rental Companies that already own the Cooke Anaphoric Lenses or any other Anamorphic Lens, that’s all, Thank you!

    All I’m saying that this Limited Helium Sensor, that HAS A height 18 mm be considered by Red as an “out of the box” way of thinking, and let the sides of the sensor go wherever they go BEYOND 24 mm, to a full 35.4 MP for an 8K size, that all. There will be less to cut to out of the edges in the picture of an Anaphoric Image that would also have a virtual 2X extension, not an actual resolution, but a virtual one, the resolution would be 8K “more or less” but it will have a much wider appearance, all with the New Helium Technology. Think about that for a minute, cut of the edges much less, and have an appearance of a wider picture that it really-is, shot with a truly professional well-made Cine Lens, but not sacrificing the 8K resolution. The Image could be for 2:1 or a DCI 2.39:1, it’s just a matter of how much to cut out the sides of the of the Anaphoric Image, that has that benefit of the Virtual Image that occurs in just ours in our brain. The DCI Image has the benefit of being able to be reduced to whatever a DCI can be reduced-too.

    Humberto Rivera
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  3. #23  
    You can't have it both ways, if you go to the 18mm height but keep the 8K width, then your total megapixel count will end up higher than 35.4MP with the current Helium sensor photosite size.
    Last edited by David Mullen ASC; 07-27-2016 at 05:40 PM.
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  4. #24  
    It's basic math -- if you keep the 8192 pixel dimension horizontally and you make the sensor shape 1.20 : 1, then the vertical has to become 6827 pixels, so the total megapixel count becomes 55.93MP. If you reduce the height to lower that number, then when you shoot anamorphic you'd be cropping the sides to get a 2.40 : 1 image once unsqueezed.

    As I said, if you want to keep the 35.4MP total, make the height 18mm, and are working with the pitch size of the Helium photosites, you could cut it to 26 x 18mm and it would be 7158 x 4944 pixels / 35.4MP. If you expand beyond 26mm / 7158 pixels wide then the total pixel count will rise.

    I think what you are asking Humberto, to have a sensor that is 18mm tall and 8192 pixels wide and has a total megapixel count of 34.5MP, would require an entirely new sensor with a different sized photosite, so it wouldn't be a modification of the Helium, it would be a totally new sensor.

    let the sides of the sensor go wherever they go BEYOND 24 mm, to a full 35.4 MP for an 8K size, that all.
    As I said, you can only go to 26mm wide / 7158 pixels if you want an 18mm tall sensor that totals 35.4MP. The size of each individual photosite is determining the dimensions in relation to the pixel count. No matter what, 18mm = 4944 pixels with the Helium pixel pitch size.
    Last edited by David Mullen ASC; 07-27-2016 at 05:45 PM.
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  5. #25  
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    Absolutely David, it would be a totally new S 35 Helium Sensor (it would need a slight change in the NAME), made with EXCITING technology that would be employed beyond the Currently Planed 29.9 mm X 15.77 mm sensor. We’re not inventing anything NEW just modifying its application for TWO sensors, without a question. I don’t know what the horizontal would be, but I know that it would be 18 mm vertical, because of the Professional Cine Lenses that are available in more than just Cooke. The current plan is to have the horizontal be 29.9 mm, that can be changed to anything that it wants-to beyond 24 mm, so if we have the “horizontal-whatever-it-is”, let-it be between 24 mm and 26 mm to play with the horizontal, that fine, so long as the vertical is 18 mm, that’s the basis of my thinking. The megapixels will be whatever they are, we got plenty of them to play with.

    I say-it again, it’s just a request with my thinking “out of the box”, that’s all.

    Another important consideration is IMAX with its two Vertical and Horizontal “Aspect Rations” of 1.43:1 and 1.91.1. The more vertical we have in the frame, the closer we’ll be to satisfying those two “Aspect Ratios”, with the number of megapixels in the image that could in fact come from a “Cooke Anamorphic Prime /i Lens Technology”, because of the virtual and vertical factor of the Anamorphic or a Master Prime. All reduced for screening at 4K or 2K DCI. Feature film screen in the ever growing IMAX format contribute a lot to any Motion Picture release Worldwide. That safety feature would be in its Megapixels count contained within the image.

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  6. #26  
    It wouldn't be a modification it would be an entirely new sensor development and construction if you are talking about changing the size of the photosites. You'd be starting from scratch, just as Helium is not a modification of the Dragon sensor, it is a totally new sensor because of the size of the photosites. A modification would be something like cutting the sensor to a different dimension from the original wafer.

    Like I calculated with the Helium technology, you could make the sensor 26mm x 18mm / 7158 x 4944 / 35.4MP. But if you increase the horizontal dimensions back to 29.9mm / 8192 pixels but make the height 18mm / 4944 pixels, then the total pixel count that you have to record becomes 40.5MP.

    Which I'm sure is possible but it may reduce your high-speed frame rate options.
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  7. #27  
    Senior Member Patrick Tresch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mullen ASC View Post

    Which I'm sure is possible but it may reduce your high-speed frame rate options.
    But does only the horizontal crop of the sensor matter in the highspeed FPS specifications?

    Does 8000k X 4000k have the same FPS capabilities than 8000k X 2000k?

    Pat
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  8. #28  
    I would assume that it's the total amount of data coming off of the sensor that affects the processing capabilities. With the current Dragon sensor, you can increase the max frame rates when you crop the sensor area being recorded, see:
    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...agon-fps-range

    6k FF / 6144 x 3160 / 19.42MP = 82.806 fps

    6K WS / 6144 x 2592 / 15.93MP = 100.67 fps

    6K HD / 5568 x 3132 / 17.44MP = 83.331 fps
    Last edited by David Mullen ASC; 07-28-2016 at 10:50 AM.
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member Christopher Probst's Avatar
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    David,

    My preference would be to keep the sensor width the same at 8192 across, BUT regardless of aspect ratio, increase the height to around 18mm... Doing some quick math, 18mm tall gives a vertical resolution of 4,932

    That's pretty damn close to 5K spec, so I'd then just recommend going for a 5120 vertical yielding a sensor height of 18.688mm.

    Cleave out your 1.2:1 aspect ratio for your 6Kx5K Anamophic mode and crop vertically for all of the rest of the spherical modes.

    That's my Win-Win dream right there!
    Last edited by Christopher Probst; 07-29-2016 at 04:17 AM.
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  10. #30  
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    Here is a citation to Jarred Land Facebook Page posted by Billy Jim from NYC;

    https://www.facebook.com/jarred.land...53849794055415

    "I think Jarred nervously gives me these early cameras to test because I don't pull any punches with him. Ok. So here I am thinking VV has stolen the show. And I'm getting the baby 8k to test thinking it's going to be a slight increase in performance like going from MX to Dragon.

    But!!! How wrong I was... I really don't think Team Red realizes just what they have made here. Or did they!

    This completely new sensor design with half sized pixels squeezed down into S35 (which is only unique to this camera) gives image attributes far greater than I thought possible. Clean!!!! Is the word. So far this camera has way surpassed my expectations. I'm actually not sure how to describe what I'm actually seeing at the moment. It's like going from HD to 4K for the very first time... This is as close as I can describe the gap “between 6k to 8k”. This is game changing as much if not more than the VV in some aspects. As these tiny pixels have taken this camera into a zone that complete kills dead professional stills cameras.... Put it this way. Shooting at 1600 - 2500 ASA is like as clean as 800 in 6k. Most of my tests so far have been low light at 3200 and upwards in mixed lighting. I'm trying to find the weak point.

    Short answer is. This thing will shake the world probably more than its big brother. Especially knowing that all your favourite S35 cinema glass that you thought you may have to throw out just got turbo charged. IMAX performance in your pocket is now.

    I'd love both the VV and the Helium in my kit now. But reality is. Helium will be my work house for at least another 5 years.

    I haven't even started my real testing yet. I'm suspecting even more surprises" - Mark Toia

    Humberto Rivera
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