Thread: Will Scarlet Dragon be upgradable to next generation sensor??

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  1. #1 Will Scarlet Dragon be upgradable to next generation sensor?? 
    Senior Member Javier Badet's Avatar
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    Hi,

    My one million dollar question that nobody seems to be wondering. As a Scarlet Dragon owner, don't see a really good deal/improvement with new Scarlet-W as with other upgrades.I'd like to know when next generation comes in future, if Scarlet Dragon owners can upgrade to new generation with a real trade-in deal, not a discount... I'm sure some people (rental companies) like the discount because they can keep the cameras, but for me (user) this wasn't the news I was hoping for... Let me tell you why:

    First of all, the camera price when down 5k... It's not like I don't like cheaper prices but that means my Scarlet Dragon when down 5k or more the price I paid as well... So as people and Red are saying, if you don't want to keep your camera and have a fake trade-in, you should sell your Scarlet Dragon, and with that money and the discount you get a good deal. Question is, who is going to buy a Scarlet Dragon at a reasonable used price when Scarlet-W would cost only a few more dollars new?? So that means I have to sell my beloved Scarlet Dragon for nothing...

    Now let's talk about new DSMC2 system and accessories. When I first got a Scarlet-X a few years ago, I was told, don't worry, all your accessories will work on next models, so you buy now and keep them for long.. That wasn't 100% true. Yes, some of the accessories work on new cameras, but as I see it, almost all modules and all the redmags that I have won't work, and that means I have to sell and buy new. OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE. This obsolescence obsolete is what at beginning made me jump to the Red system, but what I was expecting with this new DSMC2 system is that all my modules would be compatible or that I would get a trade-in system as well. But I guess I expecting too much... Then probably that would be best company ever. (I'm starting to feel the same as Apple did with pro users, now that we have the trust of pro users, let's attack the consumers market).

    So as the new Scarlet-W to Scarlet Dragon, the other think that I don't like is why isn't a 6K stills. (and sidehandle with redvolt, probably we'll see one soon). Isn't a next camera? then why we are loosing specs? I understand you want to keep the sensors than won't work at 6K but work at 5k, but then you could make more models in the line. Saying all that, Red or anyone, I'd be really happy to know if I can wait to new generation sensor to get a real trade-in or I have to go trough Scarlet-W?? And if so, can I upgrade to Epic Dragon? That would be my best choice at the moment rather than Scarlet-W and then go to next generation on a trade-in. I feel there is a big gap between Scarlet-W and Weapon. Yes, that is a price gap that I honestly can't afford that wasn't there on Scarlet-Epic.

    Finally, the most important part is the sensor, with Weapon, Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon, Scarlet-W all share the same sensor on different resolutions/speed, but at 5k 24 fps, same image quality... So my main concern is what will happen on next generation sensor and what DSMCs(or sensors) will be available to move on this obsolescence obsolete.


    Thank you for reading and I hope is all understandable, english is not my first language. I love how Red works on terms of feedback with users. Other companies should learn from this. I think is what make this company best. RedUser.net!
    Last edited by Javier Badet; 12-12-2015 at 06:54 AM.
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Scot Yount's Avatar
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    One of the things that I think people get hung up on, is their trade in value, resale value or residual value. However you want to look at it. But cameras are not keepsake objects, at least they are not supposed to be. They are tools, and tools that can be used to make money. If you have a RED camera, any camera really, get jobs. Make money. Everyone complains about what these things cost, but when you move into the RED ecosystem (unless you are a wealthy hobbyist a which point it doesn't really matter) you should be seeking to recoup your investment by working the thing. That way, when a new camera comes along, it won't matter that much because you will have made your money and, a living as well. My father was a land surveyor and he called his transit "the gun". If you have a "gun" (and you know how to use it) you can get people to pay you to shoot it. If not, you can't. Simple. Cameras are the same. If you have a Scarlet D, shoot with it till the wheels fall off. Then, buy whatever is new at the time, again, another business investment. And as to those accessories you bought? You still have them. They still work. RED isn't coming into people's homes and taking their stuff. They are offering new stuff, but you don't have to buy it to remain viable for the time being.
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Terry VerHaar's Avatar
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    It would take a bit of time to go through all of your concerns, which I don't have right this minute. But I can say one thing about a future upgrade path for Scarlet Dragon. (BTW, I, too, currently own a Scarlet Dragon)...

    I doubt you will see any additional tracks to go forward with your camera. RED has given us the pattern on which they move forward: sensor upgrade followed by body/electronics (ASICs) upgrade and then repeat. As they describe it: tic-toc.

    So, the last sensor upgrade was Dragon - which we currently have in our Scarlets. The next step, happening now, is that the original DSMC body and ASICs are being upgraded to what I'll called the "Weapon platform," often referred to as DSMC2. With your current Scarlet-D, you are halfway into that transition. Like you, I was expecting the next step might be to transplant the current (Dragon) sensor in our cameras into the new DSMC2 body. Apparently, that process has proven too expensive and/or cumbersome for RED to do and they are opting for the trade-in program to Scarlet-W instead.

    The bottom line is that the next iteration of the tic-tic cycle, when that happens, will be the creation of a whole new sensor which, if the pattern holds, will be dropped into the DSMC2 body. If RED were to offer any "holdout" Scarlet Dragon owners a chance to upgrade to that camera, they would again have to make it a trade-in anyway because no part of the old camera would be useable in the new one. At the point, Scarlet-D would be both old sensor and old body/ASICs. Just like the end of the line for "deals" for the Scarlet/Dragon MXs finally came (with due warning). I think you are seeing the final deals on the upgrade path for Dragon.

    Keep in mind, too, that you always have the opportunity to upgrade to a Weapon Mg if you feel that the Scarlet-W is a step backward. Expensive, for sure, but one hell of a high level camera!
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Javier Badet's Avatar
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    Scott, true, but you want your investments to be as more efficient as possible, and at the time technology is evolving(and consumers are demanding), there isn't that much time to recover an investment. Unless you are a rental company and you live in Los Angeles.

    Terry, I never saw it as a upgrade path of first sensor and then body, so I understand more clearly now the upgrade to Scarlet-W. But still bothers me why there isn't a 6K stills when it was before... (not saying why technically).
    Last edited by Javier Badet; 12-12-2015 at 11:05 AM.
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Terry VerHaar's Avatar
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    Additional thought - honestly, I was sort of expecting the next upgrade opportunity for me from RED to cost me around $10K. Not sure what the spec would have been but I try not to second guess where they are going since it tends to create frustration anyway. I agree that 6K would have been nice.

    But, with the idea of getting a brand new additional camera for $12K while keeping the Scarlet Dragon, it seems a pretty sweet conundrum to be in. I probably won't keep two cameras but I could if I wanted and that would give the 6K stills mode as well as a "bonus" second camera to shoot moving images as well! All for a couple grand more than I thought my upgrade cost would be - and I honestly didn't think that $10K would have gotten me any DSMC2 accessories. In the end, I think the Scarlet-W deal is pretty great for Scarlet-D owners. And, it looks like it will be available for awhile!
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  6. #6  
    RED TEAM Stacey Spears's Avatar
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    I am too lazy to find the post right now, but I believe Jarred posted recently that the next gen sensor will require a DSMC2 brain.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member Terry VerHaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Spears View Post
    I am too lazy to find the post right now, but I believe Jarred posted recently that the next gen sensor will require a DSMC2 brain.
    I'm absolutely certain that is the case. I am also confident that it's only a matter of time (and not very much of it) before Scarlet and Epic Dragon (DSMC bodies) will be EOL'd in the RED store.
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry VerHaar View Post
    Additional thought - honestly, I was sort of expecting the next upgrade opportunity for me from RED to cost me around $10K. Not sure what the spec would have been but I try not to second guess where they are going since it tends to create frustration anyway. I agree that 6K would have been nice.

    But, with the idea of getting a brand new additional camera for $12K while keeping the Scarlet Dragon, it seems a pretty sweet conundrum to be in. I probably won't keep two cameras but I could if I wanted and that would give the 6K stills mode as well as a "bonus" second camera to shoot moving images as well! All for a couple grand more than I thought my upgrade cost would be - and I honestly didn't think that $10K would have gotten me any DSMC2 accessories. In the end, I think the Scarlet-W deal is pretty great for Scarlet-D owners. And, it looks like it will be available for awhile!
    I was a bit disappointed and pissed off when I saw the offer. I guess I was expecting more than 48fps @5k and a better datarate than Raven. Plus the price, as an european who has to pay taxes, which is around 16000$ here (instead of 12000). But I changed my mind, the scarlet-W is a fantastic camera which can shoot anything from documentaries to Hollywood features. It has more than what I need. I'm just a bit worried about my scarlet dragon. I will sell it and hope Red will not reduce suddenly the price of the scarlet-D before we get the W and sell the D. That would be nice to be able to get the offer and sell it before the scarlet-W is shipping but it seems we can't. We would sell it for a better price.
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member Owen Rennie's Avatar
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    Definitely going to be some cheap scarlet dragons next year... I'll be picking one of those up for sure :)
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Hugh Scully's Avatar
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    I'm not selling my Scarlet Dragon to buy a new Scarlet W. I just bought it this year. I use mini-mags. I don't really need higher frame rates, I don't need Pro Res in the camera. 5K at 8:1 works great for me. Since it's not an upgrade I don't feel compelled to get going with the DSMC2 body for future upgrades. Actually, it's a bit of a relief. I don't have to think about offloading my accessories. I'll just buy the next camera when there's a new sensor in how ever many years and shoot the crap out of this SD in the meantime.
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