Thread: Tell me again why 70mm Film is better than Dragon or Arri images?

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  1. #1 Tell me again why 70mm Film is better than Dragon or Arri images? 
    Senior Member Mark Toia's Avatar
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    So I'm in the cinema and the trailer for Hateful 8 pops up. ... mmmmmmm

    I'm looking at it thinking ? Is that light bloom? ok ok... thats old lenses, and they would have lots of character as age is against them.

    Then blown out highlights pop up... ok ok... maybe the DP slipped up and over exposed on a few shots, maybe they did it on purpose... hey I do it...

    Edge smear... ok ok old lenses again. Charming yes, that's why I like using old lenses from time to time.

    But I then I notice the ever apparent film grain in the darker areas... ??? Ok.. 65mm Film. I shot 35mm for more than 15 years and could see grain from time to time, but why is 65mm with 4x bigger frame still have grain so obvious ? .. Ok maybe they were shooting 800ASA stock ? I don't know. ?


    So shooting on 65mm is the best cinema image quality you'll ever get to see you say ?

    Ok ok.. so the projection I saw was digital and more than likely only 2k. not 70mm as what it will be presented in. ( in a hand full of cinemas only)
    So you'd think a 2k digitally scanned image from 65mm film would be pin sharp and awesome! .. No.
    Some of Chris Nolan's shots in Batman were soft and nosey as well when we was shooting 65mm. Other shots were pin sharp and stunning.
    So I'm sure both film makers don't care about sharpness, dynamic range or noiseless images... but more the mood and style that 65mm gives, I get that and appreciate it.

    Now... having shot 4K RAW for close to 9 years now, Sat in countless grades with cinema screens in front of me, I can say quite freely... Everyone can actually get a sharper cleaner and more dynamic range than what 65mm film can give you. Especially from the latest RED 6k / ARRI 65 & Sony F65 cameras.
    8K Dragon will take it to another level again.
    You can also print your 4k digital masters to a 70mm cinema prints the same way Quentin has done for his film. And wow people with even higher fidelity.

    So my question is why? 4k digital projection will give you a far superior image, more immersive, sharper, cleaner, richer. Put those old lenses on if you want that Character flawed "LOOK" (because it does look great)

    If I want your image to have some blown out highlights in a few shots like Hateful 8 , you can do that in the grade, If I want images to look a little soft, have smear, flares and bloom, then use the same lenses that Quentin used. if its still not soft enough, blur it in the grade.
    If i want noise that replicates 65mm grain perfectly, you can add this look in via kodak film grain plugins that ILM and others use to perfectly match their 3D digital plates in with film plates seamlessly for the last decade.
    A great colourist can side by side match the look you require.

    What has me scratching my head is this...
    Why do people want to burn so much money, time, energy and resources on shooting 65mm for what gives you less. ? Yes I agree it's " a look"... and a nice look at that. But why go through the dollar / time / hassle exercise when you don't need to.
    Is it because its a great marketing ploy ?... or I've got so much money I can just waste it on stock, processing and scanning and lugging those huge monsters around set all day.. or... just good old fashion self indulgent '"Because I can"
    I tend to think its all 3.

    Irrespective of my thoughts on this subject, I'm sure the film will look stunning and amazing, and it should !. with a Great director and great DP at the helm.
    Irrespective of the grain, blurs, smears, highlights, bloom and jitter... Because I'm sure thats the charm Quentin was looking for and he's got it.

    I personally think its a total waste of money and time, not to mention the chemicals used and waste of natural resources. and yet for what gain ? that can't be achieved with modern day cameras and post techniques.
    I'd really like to see Quentin shoot FF Full frame / Vista 8k RED with his favorite lenses attached, because he will have money left over for even better sets, locations, post, and have an even better image to play with during the post grading process. Giving him even more control..
    Fincher, Scott and many others can do it...

    Anyways...

    I am looking forward to his new film, (and I wont be going to see it because he shot it on 65mm) He's one of the greatest filmmakers on the planet and nothing will derail my opinion of his fantastic work.

    Last edited by Mark Toia; 11-25-2015 at 09:49 PM.
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Kyle Dones's Avatar
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    where did you pull these screen grabs from?
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    Senior Member Antonio Forjaz's Avatar
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    same question, where did you get those screen grabs?

    and by the way, I agree 100% with what you wrote in the post, I fell the same way.
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  4. #4  
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    If the movie looks great, it's because of Bob Richardson, his crew, and the staff of Panavision (and Fotokem). Tarantino merely set the wheels in motion.

    Everything I've seen looks terrific, and I'd guarantee you that Richardson will at least get Oscar and ASC noms out of it. If nothing else, you have to admire anybody who's audacious and ambitious to want to even try to shoot 65mm film today.



    As a longtime technician with a close understanding of cinematography and color correction, if it were up to me, I would've said, "F it -- just shoot it on Alexa 65." I think it would've been fine. But giving DPs and directors the choices of different formats is a good thing. All that matters is how good the story and characters are; the choice of format will probably matter less than 10% to most audiences.

    I am intrigued that Tarantino actually has created a longer cut of the film in 70mm film and also chose different angles and shot choices for some scenes for the film release vs. the digital release. But the film will sink or swim solely according to content, not whether it's on film or digital or 35 or 70 or Super 8. And if it looks good, it's 85% because of the lighting, exposure, and lenses -- IMHO.
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  5. #5  
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    film has an emotional connection to the audience...it's not about specs
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member Mark Toia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dio Zafi View Post
    film has an emotional connection to the audience...it's not about specs

    Oh that old chest nut.

    The countless times I have had film and RED mixed side by side in the early days of RED, and no body could pick which was what.
    When graded and matched, no one one can tell.
    People keep forgetting that most 35mm films that have huge amounts of CG shots or digital backgrounds added and matched to the original film plates. Again no one can tell.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member jake blackstone's Avatar
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    Tarantino is unabashed film purist, pain and simple. And unlike many, he actually puts his money where his mouth is. He actually owns a film theater in LA, where they show movies on film only. There is another movie theater a block away from me, that also shows old movies using film projectors. There are always long lines to see those movies. There are people who simply don't care about resolution. They just want see films the way the Director and DP created them. 70mm is a medium format film. Again, it has nothing to do with resolution, but with the medium format you get the medium format look. Anyone can immediately see the difference between medium format and even the FF. They just look different, even if people seeing those images know nothing about MTF. Also, I would be extremely surprised, if Hateful 8 was scanned at 2K. That would make no sense, even if DCP was 2k (was it?). And yes, Alexa 65 has pretty much the same sensor size as a 65mm film image. Unfortunately, Weapon VV image is smaller than that.
    Regardless, I'm planing to see Hateful 8 in glorious 70mm, just the way Mr. Tarantino intended it...
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Toia View Post
    Oh that old chest nut.

    The countless times I have had film and RED mixed side by side in the early days of RED, and no body could pick which was what.
    When graded and matched, no one one can tell.
    People keep forgetting that most 35mm films that have huge amounts of CG shots or digital backgrounds added and matched to the original film plates. Again no one can tell.

    ..use both film and digital...keep them both evolving and competitive..

    the winner of the CAMERIMAGE awards in Poland this year was shot on super 16mm


    tarantino...living the dream...nice!
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member Demetri Zuev's Avatar
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    It's not just about sharpness and all



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=SGg2N32Z-co

    They are making an event out of it in which 65mm film acquisition and 70mm film projection plays a big part.
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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by jake blackstone View Post
    Tarantino is unabashed film purist, pain and simple. And unlike many, he actually puts his money where his mouth is. He actually owns a film theater in LA, where they show movies on film only. There is another movie theater a block away from me, that also shows old movies using film projectors. There are always long lines to see those movies. There are people who simply don't care about resolution. They just want see films the way the Director and DP created them. 70mm is a medium format film. Again, it has nothing to do with resolution, but with the medium format you get the medium format look. Anyone can immediately see the difference between medium format and even the FF. They just look different, even if people seeing those images know nothing about MTF. Also, I would be extremely surprised, if Hateful 8 was scanned at 2K. That would make no sense, even if DCP was 2k (was it?). And yes, Alexa 65 has pretty much the same sensor size as a 65mm film image. Unfortunately, Weapon VV image is smaller than that.
    Regardless, I'm planing to see Hateful 8 in glorious 70mm, just the way Mr. Tarantino intended it...
    Agree, if you want a big backplane alexa XL is as good as it gets if you limit your self to shoot digital, Tarantino simply has no need to limit him self to that, he is not the one who need to worry about the raw film or lab costs or the struggle it takes to actually handle those cameras that comes with it.
    I think he and a lot of directors with him actually like the camera team to be slowed down by the weight and the struggle that comes with changing mags, rigging those cameras etc. It gives him that additional time to reflect, talk it trough with the actors and the whole approach very much keeps everyone on edge. And simply there is no digitalsensor available at that size.

    Its easy to forget that backplane size compared to the object shot makes huge difference I think that alone is very much a valid reason for him. Then also who would not want to shot with those lenses etc I think he way past a point where the cost of it all makes any difference. He simply want too squeeze in a few "ben hur´s" caliber films to his resume, and using the most bad ass format available at the time. and Tarantino use classic techniques it´s more about large gear heads and cranes with operator sitting on top then reaching for a DJI ronin or such. So for him I think it´s an excellent choice not to mention the marketing boost it gives.... Next trick he can pull in that category would be to shoot his next flick on a VHS camera, that would then cause quite a stir as well :)
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