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  1. #41  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommaso Alvisi View Post
    Thanks Phil, I think Gene meant different spatial resolution but at the same datarate...so for example:

    6K WS @ 10:1 vs 5K WS @ 7:1

    or

    6K WS @ 6:1 vs 5K WS @ 4:1

    The wavelet compression make things a little less predictable...what did you find out about this?

    Thanks!
    I have a different way of working when it comes to "tuning things" that much. I have my "way" to work at 6K-5K to equate to a 4K finish. For that my general mindset is 5:1 for "at speed" recording. On Weapon I will be shooting lower REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios likely for everything.

    If I was shooting below 5K I would be always shooting at the lowest possible REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio, but I can count on one hand how many times I've shot below 5K at this point. Once for testing. Once on another shoot that needed 120fps.
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    RED Weapon 8K VV Dragon "Orochi"
    RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro "Skully"

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  2. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Tresch View Post
    Aren't the files 16bit to hold enough stops in the linear raw file?
    Bit depth does not equal dynamic range (stops).

    12bit has 4096 shades, 14bit has 16384 shades, they can both store infinite stops of dynamic range, 14bit just has finer gradiation of levels.

    The limiting factor on the number of stops recorded in the file is the analogue to digital converter.

    The R3d is always only 12bit linear, not sure what the A/D stage on the camera is as Red does not publish that spec.

    Red specify weapon/dragon has a SNR of 80db, that would indicate a 13bit A/D converter - but they also specify 16.5 stops of dynamic range.
    16.5 stops would require a 17bit A/D converter, marketing conflicting with math.
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  #43  
    "they can both store infinite stops of dynamic range" - DR is always noise limited, so as soon as the quantization noise is greater than image noise the quantization noise is now the limiting factor. Bit depth determines quantization noise, so no, DR is not infinite regardless of bit depth.

    "The R3d is always only 12bit linear" - um no.

    No, we don't talk AtoD - it's proprietary.

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  4. #44  
    Senior Member Patrick Tresch's Avatar
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    I was thinking the RAW file was the direct output from the A/D conversion compressed linearly to R3D without "remapping" the bit depth from the linear light (1 stop increment of light = 1 bit increment = double light = double bit).
    But it looks like there is more "proprietary" things going on the signal chain. So no linear corrrelation between bits -> light stops in the R3D file.

    (Did I understand right Graeme?)

    Pat
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  #45  
    The R3D file is designed so as not to limit the DR recorded from the sensor. But even in the linear system you describe, the relationship between bits and DR is not as simple as that (as I mention above about image noise and quantization noise). The main comment I was making though is that R3D is not 12 bit!

    Graeme
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  6. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress View Post
    The R3D file is designed so as not to limit the DR recorded from the sensor. But even in the linear system you describe, the relationship between bits and DR is not as simple as that (as I mention above about image noise and quantization noise). The main comment I was making though is that R3D is not 12 bit!

    Graeme
    Isn't it 14bit (in a 16bit wrapper) like pretty much all CMOS cameras out there?
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  7. #47  
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    Is there any compression gain from a Epic Dragon Mini Mag 512 to a Forged CF Weapon?
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  8. #48  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bergquist View Post
    Is there any compression gain from a Epic Dragon Mini Mag 512 to a Forged CF Weapon?
    Yes. That's one of the main features of Weapon. Check out the DSMC Media Ops Guide:
    http://s3.amazonaws.com/red_3/downlo...uide_Rev-L.pdf

    Both Weapon MG (225MB/s) and Weapon CF/Forged (300MB/s) have increased data bandwidth to allow for better compression ratios using 512GB and 1TB MINI-MAGs. 240GB MINI-MAGs are still being worked on to increase their write-to speed from what I understand.
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    RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro "Skully"

    Data Sheets and Notes:
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    Red Dragon
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  9. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Yes. That's one of the main features of Weapon. Check out the DSMC Media Ops Guide:
    http://s3.amazonaws.com/red_3/downlo...uide_Rev-L.pdf

    Both Weapon MG (225MB/s) and Weapon CF/Forged (300MB/s) have increased data bandwidth to allow for better compression ratios using 512GB and 1TB MINI-MAGs. 240GB MINI-MAGs are still being worked on to increase their write-to speed from what I understand.
    that bandwidth is SUPER LOW when you compare to other cameras.I clearly dont understand why it cant be more FUTURE PROOF ?
    Since WEAPON CF body will remain same on 8K these numbers are not quite enough for GOOD quality.I dont want to buy another new tech superspeed side module tc. with post Dragon sensor.
    Did you know Alexa 65 have 850MB/s data bandwidth?
    Btw Why not working together with codex? RED SSD system too much archaic next to Codex.
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  10. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress View Post
    "The R3d is always only 12bit linear" - um no.
    No, we don't talk AtoD - it's proprietary.
    Graeme
    Sorry, I should have written - The R3d is, currently, never more than 12bit linear.

    ps. Any resolution on the chroma aliasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunkan Wolf View Post
    Isn't it 14bit (in a 16bit wrapper) like pretty much all CMOS cameras out there?
    No and its not that simple - Arri use dual 14-bit A/D converters, low/high gain, to 16 bits of data then stored in 12bit LOG arri raw. Sony F65 is use 16bit A/D to 16bit Linear raw file. Dragon/Weapon is "proprietary" A/D rated at 80db which infers it can capture 13bits of signal, and not sure how weapon is suppose to have an additional .5 stops of dynamic range but the specs are the same 80db SNR as dragon.
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