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  1. #71  
    Moderator David Battistella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Pugh View Post
    But his survey of busy, working Red owners in LA is that the vast majority see themselves as terminally pissed. I hope folks at Red are hearing what I'm hearing, and thinking fast, because once these people are gone, they'll be gone.

    I can't see how a shrinking Red owner base would leave the ones left better off.
    Your describing the LA scene, but do you think that spreads any father? It's a much more competitive scene so I guess people would be a bit more pissed. I don't think less users is what anyone wants.
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  2. #72  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that RED anticipated a fallout from this (well disguised) price hike- they are the best at marketing so they surely know the consequences.
    I personally think it's an incredible feat to go from $17.5K camera to $75K camera line and get so many excited about it...
    Truly amazing marketing IMO...
    Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek-dot-org, jacek2@optitek.org
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  3. #73  
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    I get some of the negative emotions for sure. But want to confirm what I understand to be true.

    During NAB when people started getting annoyed with this Weapon saga, Jarred was asked if the MG option would be upgradeable down the road to the guts of the CF and, from there a path to 8K - and he said there was - or would be. Maybe it would cost more - but maybe not as processes and market evolve per usual.

    So for someone who wanted to make an incremental step to a new body with a few benefits the path is more in the 17K range. By including 5K of stuff with the MG package, and an additonal 5K AKS credit - the 17K basically moves an Epic Dragon owner over to an immediately useable new body type, auto blackshade, some pro rez etc... Then if down the road they want to go deeper there would be a path from MG to CF. I think for someone who is budget minded or leery this is a reasonable path to follow. Or to stay with the Dragon they have for now, and wait as there is no time limit on the deal for now.

    Those who are most angry could be those who upgraded close to NAB and then were thrown by the price curve for the next step. Though I think the MG is nice step that is a bit higher than usual but not insane.

    And just for the heck of it. I had to smile watching a video about getting the Alexa Mini ready for a shoot the other day. Watching as all this stuff was bolted onto the pretty little box until it was a mass of accessorization. So what the real cost to go shoot is an interestling question. Say what one wants about Red and heaven knows it is a history of Betatown - but the Dragon color and look has finally gotten real - and of all the companies Red has more experience in the DSMC game. The Weapon (I too do not love the name) is in my view a more mature system because they've been at it longer and with an attachable RV expander and cordless touch a way more slick little unit.
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  4. #74  
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    I don't know if I am in a minority. I probably am, but would like to give my opinion on this, after a month since the announcement.

    I was one of those disappointed by the announcements for selfish reasons. I had upgraded to Dragon in September, and was asked 17.5 K for a camera that supposedly corrected some of my camera small issues and added some features that are nice, but not revolutionary like going from MX to Dragon. The revolution was happening at another place that, fair enough, Red was allowing me to play, provided I could afford 50K for it, which I cannot.

    I'm probably in that small percentage of "owner operators", whose investment on Red was not demanded by my clients, but my own search for improvement and quality. I think many around the World, beyond the US, did something similar. The term "industry" is , at least here, at very early stages. With the content I produce with my Dragon, I try to show that quality can be produced locally . By using the Dragon, it makes clients and also local producers understand what is possible with current technology, as well as it frees themselves from the prejudice that the best tools are only available to the big giants. Me having a Red Camera producing independent content or 100% local produced international commercial content definitely inspired others to invest in Red equipment here, as well as to support more local productions. But the payback is not monetary, in my case. As well as my content is received it just serves to pay the bills. The Dragon upgrade was a big investment, and another 17K months after the Dragon for the improvements of Weapon just don't feel worth it, specially since "the" upgrade is 50K up the ladder, and Jarred confirming it would "cost more" to go the Magnesium route.

    But lets put this in a non selfish perspective: when I went Epic, I had to pay 35K for it. Those entering the Weapon Bandwagon are paying similar pricesfor the Magnesium. Maybe a new generation of Red owners that felt exactly like I did will benefit from this new cycle. The Epic MX and Dragon have really changed my work forever, and also local content creation. Probably its time for another one as "crazy" as I was back then to come in and do it again, and push things even more forward!
    Sérgio Perez

    Weapon Monstro #03294 "Amochai" in Macau

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  5. #75  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsie N View Post
    My thinking is different. I'm thinking the more 8k archived/mastered content there is available the sooner it will be adopted for exhibition.

    I know, I know... some will say it will be decades before 8k is adopted. They are the same ones who said it would be decades before 4k was adopted.

    But if I were a renter, I would agree with you the fewer 8k units out there the more mine would be in demand.
    4K screens have a very low adoption rate, and 4K content is… Where?

    4K finishing is still rare. I have yet to hear of anyone finishing a TVC in 4K. People debate about whether you can see any resolution difference at comfortable viewing distances (Imax theaters have you sitting closer, and Imax content is framed differently, so they are an exception) between 1080p and 4K - let's say that consensus is that you can see some, on some but not all shots, and it's subtle.

    Between 4K and 8K it is quite certain you can see none whatsoever, except in Imax, and even there in the closer half of the rows.

    That said a Dragon sensor with all the artifacts fixed and good low light performance is worth gold, and to me that is the real benefit of Weapon.
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  6. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Battistella View Post
    Your describing the LA scene, but do you think that spreads any father? It's a much more competitive scene so I guess people would be a bit more pissed. I don't think less users is what anyone wants.
    It's what I want. Too much supply means rental prices plummet. Call me a jerk but I like to make money off my investments.
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  7. #77  
    Senior Member Elsie N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Ruffo New View Post
    4K screens have a very low adoption rate, and 4K content is… Where?

    4K finishing is still rare. I have yet to hear of anyone finishing a TVC in 4K. People debate about whether you can see any resolution difference at comfortable viewing distances (Imax theaters have you sitting closer, and Imax content is framed differently, so they are an exception) between 1080p and 4K - let's say that consensus is that you can see some, on some but not all shots, and it's subtle.

    Between 4K and 8K it is quite certain you can see none whatsoever, except in Imax, and even there in the closer half of the rows.

    That said a Dragon sensor with all the artifacts fixed and good low light performance is worth gold, and to me that is the real benefit of Weapon.
    I have a 4k screen... my brother who swore he couldn't see the difference now has a 4k screen. Go Pro is shooting 4k.. You Tube is exhibiting 4k... 4k etc, etc, etc,

    Robert, you are not going to instill remorse in me for going Weapon 8k. '-)

    Like you pointed out in an earlier post between us in another thread, we all shoot differently.
    Last edited by Elsie N; 05-15-2015 at 05:05 PM.
    One camera is a shoot...but four (or more'-) Hydrogens is a prohhhh-duction... Elsie the Wraith
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  8. #78  
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    Can we officially retitle this thread: Customer Satisfaction Survey:)
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  9. #79  
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    Eu Don't retire this thread. It suffered a derail but it has fantastic info and debate from Jeff and Bruce, two of the best posters here in reduser. Lets get it back on topic!

    I love editing in prores. But with a rocket X or with newer, more powerful gpus, i fail to see why capturing it today is as important as, say , 2 years ago for producers/clients?

    I work in a very stressed scenario (motorsport coverage and race weekend highlights for its prize ceremony), and today's redraw workflow with a rocket is fast and completely doable. We are even all "macintosh' so its not even the fastest workflow, but we get much faster than realtime convertion of files to prores- again, great for editing- while keeping pristine future proof redcode raw...

    I was one of those that tried to push for a prores module from 2012-2014 (Epic MX days) and literaly every single year things have gotten better for red workflow. Now I think, even at 6K in a Macbookpro Retina 2012 with rocket x and a fast thunderbolt raid, it cuts like butter. (FCPX here with Adobe Creative suite for everything else).

    I think the zeithgeist of our industry is still stuck in 2012. That is probably the biggest battle we need to fight with clients about.
    Sérgio Perez

    Weapon Monstro #03294 "Amochai" in Macau

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  10. #80  
    Senior Member PatrickFaith's Avatar
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    I would prefer to have 4k out the weapon sdi bnc connector (using the single bnc standard so i can connect that to my atomos shogun for it to save 4k prores).
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