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  1. #1 ProRes and Weapon 
    Moderator David Battistella's Avatar
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    This discussion was moved from the built in ND thread that ended up getting jacked with a pretty interesting prores discussion.

    So now it is here and has it's own name.



    I said before. I'll say it again.

    Weapon Dragon needs 6k prores.

    You want "that"market. 2k ain't gonna cut it. The RAW battle is all but lost in "that" market. (If we really kid ourselves into thinking this is all about prores).

    If you don't have to use the processing power to scale it, it's probably doable. It's a lot more processing to scale images than to pass through the frame size.


    Updated: Prores specs out at 5120x2160


    https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/...hite_Paper.pdf
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT200224
    Last edited by David Battistella; 04-22-2015 at 10:51 AM.
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  2. #2  
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    6K pro rez. Now that is upgrade!!!!
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  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by David Battistella View Post
    I said before. I'll say it again.

    Weapon Dragon needs 6k prores.
    Disagree 100%.

    Weapon needs UHD (3.8K) ProRes recording. Even if, to pull it off, it's UHD (3.8K) ProRes without any RAW at the same time.

    If they can pull that off - truth is - more people will TEST it vs. 6K/8K RAW + HD Prores for editorial. So ... even though it goes against RED's "RAW DNA" - fact is - IMO - MORE folks will end up shooting 6K/8K RAW on Weapons if they also pull off and/allow UHD (3.8K) ProRes recording.

    It will just get MORE productions to consider the camera - then in testing - they will see - the best solution is 6K/8K RAW + HD/2K ProRes for editorial. It will sell more cameras. Period.

    6K ProRes is actually the most stupid thing I can think of. No offense David - you know I love you :)
    Mark L. Pederson
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  4. #4  
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    Yes Mark. Weapon needs 4K UHD. I am afraid no matter how much love we bestow on our Dragons etc here - out there the lack of that is gonna get just another shrug - another eye roll - and another 'they just don't get it'.
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarquin Cardona View Post
    that is gonna get just another shrug - another eye roll - and another 'they just don't get it'.
    Maybe. But I'm an optimist. I also know that APPLE is very strict on ProRes licensing and I don't think they let you officially announce specs until that spec works 100% and is tested.

    It will be a very BIG MISTAKE is RED can do it - and they choose not to do it. Again, Jim is 100% right - RAW is where it is at.

    But if ProRes helps get you to get scared, brain washed folks to come over and test a camera that has the EASIEST RAW of any camera ... well ... you gotta be nuts not to do that.
    Mark L. Pederson
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  6. #6  
    REDuser Sponsor Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    Mark... You've been giving this some thought, and have an idea of workflows and signal bandwidth...

    David. You rock. We have never really found common ground on the prores thing, though :)

    Prores should add functionality (and as Mark says, give people a realistic option to find out that RED RAW might be better)
    There are scenarios where I can see that a a prores-encoded log file from a scaled uncompressed signal might have the edge over (at least 8:1+ compressed) RED RAW.

    And 1080/2k/UHD are the leveraging formats to get into consideration (methinks)

    Love RED RAW, but that's kinda besides the point.
    Life is good. So is RED...


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  7. #7  
    Moderator David Battistella's Avatar
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    No one loves raw more than me.

    And i'm in no way offended!

    here is the logic.

    Lets to say you want to nail the feature market (as we are being told)

    if RAW is what makes the difference, the overwhelming choice would already be RED (and I'm talking about ARRI type numbers in that tier of production here)

    but it's not. Clearly, factually, they don't actually give a shit. The majority, They want it easy. Prores, shoot, edit, easy. 2k. They don't care. We see this over and over.

    Enter weapon. While ARRI moves to 3.8k why do you think 3.8k is going to be enough to move to dragon.

    Dc2 RLF.

    Sensitivity, check
    skintone, chevk
    dr, check
    formfactor, check
    prores 2k only, next

    so what's attractive about a 6k prores.

    1. This level of DP is comfortable baking in ISO and WB, they do it every day on Alexa.
    2. Reframing possibilities and the extra resolution helps.
    3. Familiar workflow
    4. Raw backup
    5. 6k prores

    admit it mark. Those last 5 things are things you could sell and would help MOVE dp's
    apples for apples, they ain't gonna budge or if they do, it's to be first, but will RED keep them? History shows that many tried the night on the town but went back to the wife.
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  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by David Battistella View Post
    No one loves raw more than me.

    And i'm in no way offended!

    here is the logic.

    Lets to say you want to nail the feature market (as we are being told)

    if RAW is what makes the difference, the overwhelming choice would already be RED (and I'm talking about ARRI type numbers in that tier of production here)

    but it's not. Clearly, factually, they don't actually give a shit. The majority, They want it easy. Prores, shoot, edit, easy. 2k. They don't care. We see this over and over.
    Almost every feature film that shoots ARRI shoots RAW now that the XT does it on board. It is the episodic TV market that shoots ProRes.
    Mark L. Pederson
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  9. #9  
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    Seeing as we are all over this right now. I totally 100% back the idea of at least 4KUHD in Weapon. If it were me - my gift to my troops would be to give the loyal this up front at a discount. Why? Because those who believe and have believed in Red are not the prob.

    I know Raw is best. But my industry friends just smile and call me 'Owner Op.' It's not that I don't use other cameras. I do. I have even shot with Sony FS7 recently which now is 4K does 60fps and had built in ND and they fixed their magenta cast in two months! Just saying. And it sucks not.

    So what we are discussing here is more what you would do if you were a camera company with a good camera and a bit of a dinged rep. And now being flanked by the Mini which is basically a revised version of your camera with the specs and look the industry wants.

    You have to get mad as hell. And you need to put the power in the hands of your loyal fast, affordably and hope to win the hearts and minds.
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  10. #10  
    Moderator David Battistella's Avatar
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    we are all RAW lovers. Red lovers.

    Why I am a bit baffled.

    RED has an amazing CODEC called REDCODE RAW. They own it it is theirs and it's pretty brilliant.

    Now, If you are going to go out and BUY/License the use of a third party codec why just offer a 2K prores file. It's LATE. That would have been perfect for EPIC and dragon starting three years ago. Doing it now in this way is not the forward thinking I have become accustomed to at RED.

    So this is why I say. Just pass through the camera resolution to the ProRes file. You bought the tech, why limit it? It does not mean RED has quit on RAW, it means they are aggressively competing for that business. (if that is the stated objective)

    But I just think (and I have no skin in this game because I am completely thrilled with my camera and my workflow) that if you want to use the Weapon Dragon to "slay the dragon" so to speak, then it ain't going to be by declaring a tie (3.8K to 3.8K prores) but by going for the WIN, 6K prores file from my 6K Dragon.

    If RED did this, it would not shatter my belief in RAW or make me shoot prores. It would make me happy that they were trying to kick some more ass.
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