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  1. #111  
    I think Clayton is trying to understand the financial logic of the RED upgrade system, there's no need to ream him for it. He's not alone in feeling uncertain about paying as much for the upgrade as he has already paid for the camera.

    My MX is off the upgrade path. That means RED loses any further dollars from me to maintain that camera. This doesn't seem like a win for either RED or for me, really. Which is why I'm trying to offer suggestions for alternatives.

    I wish more people were brainstorming out potentially useful alternatives instead of engaging in sarcasm, name-calling and lol-ing. It would be nice to be able to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation on other possibilities....what would a win-win look like?
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  2. #112  
    Senior Member Elsie N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz View Post
    I think Clayton is trying to understand the financial logic of the RED upgrade system, there's no need to ream him for it. He's not alone in feeling uncertain about paying as much for the upgrade as he has already paid for the camera.

    My MX is off the upgrade path. That means RED loses any further dollars from me to maintain that camera. This doesn't seem like a win for either RED or for me, really. Which is why I'm trying to offer suggestions for alternatives.

    I wish more people were brainstorming out potentially useful alternatives instead of engaging in sarcasm, name-calling and lol-ing. It would be nice to be able to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation on other possibilities....what would a win-win look like?
    I admit to not being brought up in a "Group Think" culture, but one where I was taught to be self-reliant. And because of that mentality, I don't think it is incumbent upon me to solve this problem. if we solve it for those who can't do for themselves, they will never learn survival skills.

    The above may sound cheeky but i'm dead serious.
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  3. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz View Post
    My MX is off the upgrade path. That means RED loses any further dollars from me to maintain that camera.
    If your camera needed repairs you wouldn't send it in just because you an no longer upgrade it? I'm fairly certain they can and will still fix it for you within reason.
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  4. #114  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    The truth is that the camera line up has always been lower than most other companies competing in the same class.
    I don't have the money for an Alexa or a Sony F65, but I had the money for an Epic MX which I now upgraded to an Epic Dragon.
    What has happened now with Weapon is that they opened up the high end market.

    Most filmmakers still favors Alexa, which is the biggest competitor to Red no doubt. To make matters worse for Arri, Red now released Weapon, which is a higher end camera that delivers more than an Alexa could but around the same figures. We are talking VistaVision 8K high end filmmaking competing with a 4K s35 camera.

    People forget that this might change the industry and which camera is preferred. The more stable and better Red cameras get and the easier the workflow gets, more people will use Red for their projects. This will be good for everyone. You won't have to hear producers complaining about Red because they heard someone somewhere sometime say that Red cameras are unreliable. Because now Red features the easiest workflow for high end projects.

    Our cameras, be it Scarlet or Epic dragons haven't lost their value on the market. They are still where they are while Weapon is a higher end version of our cameras.

    And, if this thread is focusing on indie filmmakers, if you can't make a movie that connects with people using any Red camera, then you might not be cut out for making movies.
    Even the Scarlet MX is more than enough to make movies with. People still make movies with DSLR's. Movies that get released on iTunes!

    If it turns out that I will never be able to upgrade to Weapon and I'm stuck with my Epic Dragon, I will still be able to create stuff with it for at least the next 10 years without it loosing it's value as a creative tool. And if that isn't value I dunno, ten years is a long time.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  5. #115  
    Senior Member Paul Russell's Avatar
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    As an Indie shooter/Dragon owner, I'm not worried about the Weapon. I understand that it's a high end extension of the range that someone like me really doesn't need right now. And in a year or so time, it'll drop a little in price and I'll be able to upgrade my Dragon. Nothing wrong with that.
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  6. #116  
    Senior Member shashbugu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    The truth is that the camera line up has always been lower than most other companies competing in the same class.
    I don't have the money for an Alexa or a Sony F65, but I had the money for an Epic MX which I now upgraded to an Epic Dragon.
    What has happened now with Weapon is that they opened up the high end market.

    Most filmmakers still favors Alexa, which is the biggest competitor to Red no doubt. To make matters worse for Arri, Red now released Weapon, which is a higher end camera that delivers more than an Alexa could but around the same figures. We are talking VistaVision 8K high end filmmaking competing with a 4K s35 camera.

    People forget that this might change the industry and which camera is preferred. The more stable and better Red cameras get and the easier the workflow gets, more people will use Red for their projects. This will be good for everyone. You won't have to hear producers complaining about Red because they heard someone somewhere sometime say that Red cameras are unreliable. Because now Red features the easiest workflow for high end projects.

    Our cameras, be it Scarlet or Epic dragons haven't lost their value on the market. They are still where they are while Weapon is a higher end version of our cameras.

    And, if this thread is focusing on indie filmmakers, if you can't make a movie that connects with people using any Red camera, then you might not be cut out for making movies.
    Even the Scarlet MX is more than enough to make movies with. People still make movies with DSLR's. Movies that get released on iTunes!

    If it turns out that I will never be able to upgrade to Weapon and I'm stuck with my Epic Dragon, I will still be able to create stuff with it for at least the next 10 years without it loosing it's value as a creative tool. And if that isn't value I dunno, ten years is a long time.
    I'm not sure i understand you. The Epic Dragon is a great camera, it has more resolution than the Alexa, but DP's and Producers favor the Alexa over the Dragon. The Weapon Dragon as announced has the same camera image as the Epic Dragon. Alexa has a 6K 65mm censor F65 DP's are currently raving about. I dont think you should worry about resolution and DR at this stage of the game. The Epic Dragon will be here for another 5 years. Vista Vision is a niche product, although I wouldn't worry about it right now.
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  7. #117  
    Senior Member Jeffrey Loewe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    The truth is that the camera line up has always been lower than most other companies competing in the same class.
    I don't have the money for an Alexa or a Sony F65, but I had the money for an Epic MX which I now upgraded to an Epic Dragon.
    What has happened now with Weapon is that they opened up the high end market.

    Most filmmakers still favors Alexa, which is the biggest competitor to Red no doubt. To make matters worse for Arri, Red now released Weapon, which is a higher end camera that delivers more than an Alexa could but around the same figures. We are talking VistaVision 8K high end filmmaking competing with a 4K s35 camera.

    People forget that this might change the industry and which camera is preferred. The more stable and better Red cameras get and the easier the workflow gets, more people will use Red for their projects. This will be good for everyone. You won't have to hear producers complaining about Red because they heard someone somewhere sometime say that Red cameras are unreliable. Because now Red features the easiest workflow for high end projects.

    Our cameras, be it Scarlet or Epic dragons haven't lost their value on the market. They are still where they are while Weapon is a higher end version of our cameras.

    And, if this thread is focusing on indie filmmakers, if you can't make a movie that connects with people using any Red camera, then you might not be cut out for making movies.
    Even the Scarlet MX is more than enough to make movies with. People still make movies with DSLR's. Movies that get released on iTunes!

    If it turns out that I will never be able to upgrade to Weapon and I'm stuck with my Epic Dragon, I will still be able to create stuff with it for at least the next 10 years without it loosing it's value as a creative tool. And if that isn't value I dunno, ten years is a long time.
    Maybe i'm not understanding you correctly. How is an entire camera lineup that actually shoots 4K + resolution in a lower class than other companies? Arri has been around along time. They own the market because of their history. How quickly RED has moved in is pretty impressive. I'd wager to say if RED sticks around another 30 some years they'll own just as much if not more of the market, maybe even sooner.

    I don't think you can really classify RED cameras in a lower class just because RED helped democratize the market and get cameras in more hands of endusers than Arri by using aggressive pricing. I wouldn't say 10K/day rentals on that Arri 6K 65MM camera puts it in a higher end class, other than camera specs in terms of sensor size. It's just more expensive and some prefer the taste of Arri. Personally I prefer the RED image, and think the fact I can actually afford it puts RED in a higher class because in reality more people are using them, and because they actually get it.
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  8. #118  
    Senior Member Jeffrey T. Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    I feel like alot of our Scarlet customers and the indie shooters out there are having some separation anxiety looking at the price point of Weapon and a few people are concerned we have forgotten about the "little guys".

    Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

    This is a wonderful, wonderful thing to hear. I didn't realize how out in the cold I was feeling until I read this. While most of the post is actually saying how cool Weapon is, it will be interesting to see what entry level / sub 20k customers can purchase from Red in the future.

    Thanks Jarred
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  9. #119  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    My point being that Red has always made affordable high end cameras that rival and technically surpass expensive ones from companies like Arri. But now, with Weapon they have a more expensive option that's even better than the Epic Dragon. Which even further strengthen the status of Red. The 8K VistaVision will be a much more flexible format than the 65mm Arri, due to available lenses and R3D format.
    Only really high end productions will afford the Arri 65. Most other productions who would like to shoot with something more flexible but still performing in the highest league might look into the 8K Vista.

    What I mean is that there is still this love for Arri, seen very much on the Oscar nomination list this year which feature almost only Arri cameras. Be it tradition or whatever, but with Red giving the ability to use a fast workflow with ProRes and in a lighter and better performing body, it will gain even more ground in this uphill battle against the titans like Arri. And this is good for any Red owner, because bigger productions inspire more people to use Red cameras and give us more work.

    I know producers who shoot on Alexa because movies like those in the Oscar run used them, not because they are the best for their production. So getting the biggest DP's to choose Weapon will inspire lesser knowing people in the industry to choose Red over Alexa and in turn they might use the cameras we have, even though they aren't Weapons.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  10. #120  
    Senior Member shashbugu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    My point being that Red has always made affordable high end cameras that rival and technically surpass expensive ones from companies like Arri. But now, with Weapon they have a more expensive option that's even better than the Epic Dragon. Which even further strengthen the status of Red. The 8K VistaVision will be a much more flexible format than the 65mm Arri, due to available lenses and R3D format.
    Only really high end productions will afford the Arri 65. Most other productions who would like to shoot with something more flexible but still performing in the highest league might look into the 8K Vista.

    What I mean is that there is still this love for Arri, seen very much on the Oscar nomination list this year which feature almost only Arri cameras. Be it tradition or whatever, but with Red giving the ability to use a fast workflow with ProRes and in a lighter and better performing body, it will gain even more ground in this uphill battle against the titans like Arri. And this is good for any Red owner, because bigger productions inspire more people to use Red cameras and give us more work.

    I know producers who shoot on Alexa because movies like those in the Oscar run used them, not because they are the best for their production. So getting the biggest DP's to choose Weapon will inspire lesser knowing people in the industry to choose Red over Alexa and in turn they might use the cameras we have, even though they aren't Weapons.
    Point well taken, you are absolutely right about reasons people choose Alexa, the Oscars being one of them. Majority of the Oscar winners and nominees shot Film and Raw. Majority of the Oscar nominees were low to medium budget productions whose line producers would rather put money into other logistics other done camera and Post. There are however more indie movies that shoot with the Red than with any Arri. Simply put there are more Reds in the world than there are Arri Alexa's. the form factor of the Epics allow for quick, discrete and lighter setups. There's this myth about Red's lowlight sensitivity. When was the last time you watched a cult indie movie with bad lighting, I mean as bad as 80' indie Movies. ( let me clarify, Low budget to me means above $250k and below 5 million). Lights are so cheap to own or rent these days. They are brighter, more controllable and render cleaner colors. You should call your local Panavision or big equipment rental company to get pricing on equipment. You get a Sprinter van worth of camera gear for $30K for a 5 week shoot. So it doesn't matter which camera cost more, since you can get two bodies of any of the cameras with all the bells and whistles including glass, wireless monitoring and focusing etc for that much. Your Red Scarlet Dragon or Epic Dragon is a blockbuster cam and its the only camera you'll need for the next 5 years.
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