Thread: I'd like to chime in, if I may...

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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Milan S.'s Avatar
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    I think you are misconstruing the gripe people have.

    It's not the price of the upgrade people have a gripe with, it's the VALUE of the upgrade.

    Myself and many others were ready to place the deposit on Monday morning, until the spec came out.
    For an Epic Dragon owner-operator, the upgrade simply doesn't make sense.
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member Brian Boyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Lalande View Post
    Hey Zhibo!

    Are you sure the 5000$ credit isn't limited to NAB week?
    I got an email from red that says the contrary. (and I too own an EPIC dragon)
    Where did you get that info?
    That email is jacked. I don't know why they haven't sent out a follow-up email clearly stating the policy. Jarred added these two lines to his original Mg Weapon post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Your $5000 accessory credit will remain until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon, and is not limited to NAB week.

    Optionally, if you wish to purchase Weapon new ( not upgrade your camera ) you will receive the $5000 accessory credit, but only if you purchase the new Weapon during NAB.
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member shashbugu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Rook View Post
    I just don't think Red will leave everyone in the lurch after NAB. They've been really good to their customer base and that's one of the reasons I'm working so hard to get one. I mean you can't send your C300 back to Canon and demand $2.5K toward a C300 MKii. I can understand the frustration, honestly I can. Especially with the MX-Dragon upgrade being like getting a new camera for $20K less than a new camera. The good thing about all the frustration is that Red's customers have a voice. And they listen. And I do also realize that I'm looking at it from an outsiders perspective.

    But from an outsiders perspective you have the Ferrari of cameras. Sure it's not the LaFerrari but it is the F12 Berlinetta. How many people can say they have that? Hopefully soon it will be me.
    If you send your C300 back to Canon, you'll be waiting for a response for the rest of your life. LOL... good one Adam
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  4. #24  
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    I admit I'm guilty of it too, but it's so easy to say how pervasive the "moths to a flame" mentality can be. Everything that RED is doing is pretty exciting, and we all get caught up into wanting to keep up with it all. My small company has a Scarlet MX that we ordered an hour after it was announced. With Jarred saying things like "you seriously need to have a Dragon before NAB" (I know that's not exact), it makes any of us wonder and WANT to upgrade if we hadn't already! I get it, I really do... because I wanted to pay the $9500 to Dragonize my Scarlet... but I didn't.

    I don't blame RED or anyone for building up the excitement, because it sure is fun! :) I also realize that nobody is making me upgrade. It's every single persons choice. I basically thought... would having a Dragon sensor cause me to lose work that I currently get, or reduce the chances of me getting new work? For us, the Dragon sensor wouldn't have any effect. We do technical / service / how-to videos for the most part. I would LOVE to have a Dragon sensor, don't get me wrong! But it simply wasn't necessary.

    Yes, the Dragon sensor is better in so many ways... but not having it isn't somehow going to make my MX sensor worse. ;) Our Scarlet MX makes beautiful images, and it will continue to do so. Or at least until I can't contain my excitement and buy a Weapon...
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  5. #25  
    Senior Member Clayton Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akin A View Post
    Adam, one thing to consider is how a lot of redusers make their money.
    For those of us, like myself, producing our own independent films/series, what you said applies. We have complete control over what gear we choose and how to make it look as best as we can. Our competition is other films/series, not other cinematographers or rental houses.
    I fall in Akin's group.
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  6. #26  
    Senior Member Hugh Scully's Avatar
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    Me too, I fall into Akin's group now and do not expect to make money with the camera as a rental, except when I'm with it. I just bought a new Scarlet Dragon instead of a used MX. I have shot with the Scarlet MX which is fantastic but the Dragon skin tones, DR, and highlight handling is so much greater. I was sharing emails with a colorist I know who helped me go this way. It was a lot more money for me so I'm tapped. The Weapon upgrade is not in my wheelhouse. This is, by a mile, the finest imagery I've ever achieved with any camera I've ever owned to date.

    However, Dragon is the latest sensor and there may be future sensor upgrades to which Dragon owners will all be eligible. Right? or am I missing something? Weapon is the top of the line. I see how that may change the marketplace for Epic Dragon owners competing with rental houses but I don't see how that is Red's problem, necessarily.
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  7. #27  
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    This is the message I wanted from Jim:

    "Dear Red owner: Your camera is worth every penny you paid for it. It's a collector's item and only the best DPs will ever have owned one. However, upgrading costs $20k."

    See what I did there. I didn't make you feel like you lost anything, only that you can upgrade if you want. People get the sense that they are being left behind, but Dragon hasn't even found it's legs yet. Its peak popularity will likely be a year or two from now when the slow moving gears in producers' minds figure out what a stellar system it is. (and hard drive space gets cheaper)

    That being said, the only reason I would even want the Weapon is because it's not as heavy. Everything else is who cares. 2k prores, what? Can't I do that with a Ninja Star? Fan noise? Doesn't bother me. I have the new fan and it's fine. Less hot? Personally, I like having a sizzling hot frying pan next to my head when I operate. Keeps me in the game. Anything else I'm missing? If you got a Dragon, you just have the heavier weapon. Enjoy owning the best camera ever invented, the hotter and heavier version.

    Also, Weapon shouldn't hurt your ability to get work because clients don't care how heavy your camera is, they are going to choose Epic over Weapon 9 times out of 10, because it's cheaper and it does the same thing! Scarlett Dragon gets even more play. And as for Carbon Fiber VV, sure, it's cool, so is the Alexa 65, but I sure as heck don't need it.
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  8. #28  
    Senior Member ignition's Avatar
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    So many moot points IMO. Buy the camera you need, for the work you're doing, and how well it supports your commercial and creative objectives.

    Most arguments and complaints seem to bias towards one or the other. It's either a creative complex on how much more a camera should do or the 'image quality' etc. as if price is no object at all and this latest incarnation doesn't push the envelope enough .. or it's a commercial complaint around how something is unreasonably priced and you don't see the "value" in raw dollar terms and how many of the features you're expected to pay for aren't important to YOU.

    Let's be clear - value is a combination of commercial + creative. Unless you're fortunate enough to be loaded with cash and can just do the 'creative at all expense'. Or you're so commercially driven, it probably makes sense to shoot 4K based on price and Panasonic DH4's and BMCC Ursula's are the wise choice.

    Going back to the original post in this thread - if you "put money down" for a Dragon not because it was a wise investment but because you expected some kind of heavily discounted upgrade path, I think the mistake is yours for buying a camera available right then and there that only had value to you in terms of that future expectation. Dragon is a great camera that opens up countless commercial and creative opportunities. That is what should have driven your purchasing decision. You set yourself up for disappointment and it very much feels like you're crying "snake oil salesmen" as a result, which I strongly oppose on the grounds herein.

    Find the intersect between your commercial and creative ambitions, and you'll make the right choice of camera. And make the right choices around whether to upgrade to Weapon, etc.

    We decided to go CF 6K weapon because ProRes has commercial benefits to us, and a lighter body has creative benefits (aerial). The decision was made on the rationale of how we could benefit from it.
    Cheers,

    Darren Vukasinovic | Ignition Pictures
    Melbourne, Victoria - Australia
    RED Weapon 6K CF Dragon #00702 "Ripley"
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member ignition's Avatar
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    Just read that "This is the message I wanted from Jim" post... is it just me, or is this something akin to vocally objecting like "this is a uselessly incremental update of the iPhone 4 with this 4S crap" and demanding Steve Jobs personally respond to their gripes on why the latest incarnation fails to meet their particular expectations? And then you go and draw comparisons to competing products, as if you aren't entirely of your own free will to go there if it's so much better for you.

    I'm not putting Jim and Steve into the same boat per se. I just don't get why people become so personal about entirely optional things.
    Cheers,

    Darren Vukasinovic | Ignition Pictures
    Melbourne, Victoria - Australia
    RED Weapon 6K CF Dragon #00702 "Ripley"
    RT Mk 3.1 Motion Wireless FF, Bolt Pro 2000 Wireless TX/RX + Bolt Sidekick, Bright Tangerine Strummer DNA MB
    Camera Equipment Hire, Crew & Production Support, Dragon Aerial Cinematography
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  10. #30  
    I can completely understand why some RED owners might feel a little frustrated or annoyed by what has happened here. In a nutshell RED drove a last minute push to have MX owners upgrade to the Dragon sensor. The marketing for this push was based on a fear of missing out on future upgrades- essentially to stay within the RED upgrade path you had to upgrade to the Dragon sensor and do it soon! For Scarlet MX owners (like myself) the obvious path was to the Scarlet Dragon, a $10000 upgrade. Now if someone who was scraping around for $10000 to make the upgrade in time (who probably wouldn't have done it otherwise) and is then told post NAB that their recent investment will only be recognised for half of what they just paid, then yeah I think they have every right to be pissed off. To further add salt to the wounds the next step in the upgrade process involves them forking out a substantial more amount of money, an amount that is likely going to be well beyond the reach of many Scarlet owners.

    I was fortunate that I chose not to rush in to the upgrade. I really made my decision about six months ago when RED decided they would up their price to the Dragon upgrades post Christmas by $3000. Why aging technology was becoming more expensive over time made no sense to me and it became obvious it was just a push to try and increase Dragon upgrade volumes. When the price came down again (and has since gone up again) I made a firm decision that I wasn't going to let any camera manufacturer dictate when I would upgrade or invest in new equipment. Fortunately perhaps, my Scarlet MX has been way to busy to send off for an upgrade anyway, so that completely killed off any temptation.

    I do definitely feel for those who did shell out for the upgrade only to realise that their recent investment counts for little towards the next step in the upgrade path. By my math, and correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't the most affordable path for someone with a Scarlet MX such as myself be best off to avoid any upgrade path and just buy a Weapon new? If this is the case then those who did rush into a Dragon upgrade might feel a little raw.
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