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  1. #171  
    Senior Member Milan S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe View Post
    And your point is?

    Maybe I'm being overly obtuse, but it seems that some people are asking for an EPIC Dragon wrapped in the Weapon body, or just a form factor change. What is the point? What if a module adapter for the EPIC and Scarlet were available to allow attachment of the newer Weapon modules? Then there is no need to move laterally to a Weapon camera that isn't a Weapon, but a re-housed EPIC? That was my suggestion. It's a means to tailor existing cameras to the newer ecosystem of the top level offering.

    Beyond that, if someone were to buy a Weapon, that doesn't have all the additional processing power or is no better than the current EPIC, then what purpose would that serve? That was the suggestion made earlier in the thread to which I suggested the module adaptor. IMO, to have such an offering -- lower on the scale Weapon camera -- serves no purpose other than to give the immediate outward impression that it's a Weapon (cosmetic) or the ability to use the newer modules (functional, but potentially solvable with a different module adapter).

    Or more to the point, I see an advantage to the form factor change moving forward for new cameras. But for someone who already owns an EPIC, I'm not sure I see value in cross-grading to a different housing. ....If an adapter would address module issues and the two camera options would be functionally identical.
    I agree completely.

    I would love to see Weapon AL but just rehousing current Epic Dragon brains doesn't make any sense other than maybe taking advantage of the new accessories and modules.
    It needs to have the Weapon guts in order to be future proof, that's the reason most people are upgrading - not for the cosmetics.
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  2. #172  
    Senior Member Milan S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott C View Post
    Well spoken Gavin, I feel the same. I was ready to pull the trigger on another ~$9500-$12000 upgrade on Sunday.
    + 1
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  3. #173  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

    Ears Open...
    Love this. Every indie shooter in the world currently on RED (or who doesn't own RED)...would LOVE YOU.
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  4. #174  
    What I see expressed in Red forum is a manufacturer going to great lengths to maintain its customer base, but some of that base is struggling to afford its product.

    Many Red users have had the belief that the manufacturer would forever make upgrades that would be affordable.


    So I wonder what compromises are Red making in either features or price of rolling out a new camera that has to maintain the promise of "obsolescence obsolete"?
    All these deals and upgrades have to add to the core price.

    Just look at the bang for buck for what is on offer in the industry now. Red's original customer base would be thrilled with the price performance of newer kit yet Red are no longer in this market.

    Isn't it time to simply introduce a sub $15k Red where obsolescence is guaranteed?

    The factoring of obsolescence of plant over time is a sensible foundation to startup a business for aspirational and new guys, rather than misinterpreting the genuine best wishes and encouragement of a manufacturer as a kind of guarantee that upgrades will be affordable.



    Mike Brennan
    Last edited by Michael J Brennan; 04-16-2015 at 06:11 PM.
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  5. #175  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Brennan View Post
    What I see expressed in Red forum is a manufacturer going to great lengths to maintain its customer base, but some of that base is struggling to afford its product.

    Many Red users have had the belief that the manufacturer would forever make upgrades that would be affordable.

    So I wonder what compromises are Red making in either features or price of rolling out a new camera that has to maintain the promise of "obsolescence obsolete"?
    All these deals and upgrades have to add to the core price.

    Just look at the bang for buck for what is on offer in the industry now. Red's original customer base would be thrilled with the price performance of newer kit yet Red are no longer in this market.

    Isnt it time to simply introduce a sub $15k Red where obsolescence is guaranteed?
    What you are describing is a Scarlet-X Dragon, though not exactly for the price you are looking for. A bit more expensive than that. But it does shoot 5K FF and is an entry level digital cinema camera.

    Then you have RED Epic Dragon which provides a bit more.

    Then you have RED Weapon Dragon bodies which provide a bit more still.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  6. #176  
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    OK, given that no option will make everyone happy, I'd only say that (in my opinion) the principles to use for putting together an additional option would be the following -

    a. Address all the recurring and long-standing pain points brought up on this forum again and again. Some of them that I personally feel exist are :
    - Blackshading - yes, I put in a lot of time to understand this and the process to do it. But frankly, I never know if I got it right. I'd rather this were handled by the system with a user option only to be used for really off-the-reservation usage situations so when the camera is in the hands of less experienced crews, its not a potential disaster
    - OLPF related and gate related - that horrible gate shadow that gets cut off, goldilocks olpf would be sweet, etc
    - Sensor artifacts - magenta smears, noise, low-light sensitivity - this performance needs to match Weapon's. Its odd to say that these only get solved for a 'top-of-the-line' camera.
    - Fan noise. Enuf said
    - Thermal management improvements (outside of any Magnesium-related benefits) - again, odd to say this only is available for a top-of-the-line camera. This should come with a body upgrade.

    b. Allow for any new modules build to DSMC V2 standard to work
    - I know I'd want the Off-hollywood module for eg., that seems to turn the camera into a size I'd like and offers the i/o I'd like

    So the issue then becomes how do you differentiate Weapon from this EPIC+ and SCARLET+ models?

    That's a hard one for me without knowing everything here, but the obvious ones seem to be -
    - Prores (that'll get upgraded to 4444 or what have you for free at some point when available) and timecode matches RAW files - this would be huge for the prores people and worth the upgrade just for that
    - Processing power reliant modules that are not included (or, are not included for free) with EPIC+/SCARLET+ - such as a Broadcast module (principle being these would be the ones prores/broadcast peeps would want)
    - WeaponColor / WeaponGamma - a color science that relies on the stronger processing power to deliver a stronger punch or has more flexibility
    - Ability to noisereduce in camera should you choose (again, thanks to more processing available)
    - Body material (make it high falutin carbon fibre crossed with magnesium with logos in titanium or whatever - premium manufacturing and styling, in other words). You hold it, you know its a weapon.
    - Even better thermal management that comes from this high-priced body material
    - Priority for upgrading to VistaVision or next sensor coming up
    - Longer warranty and premium service (ok, i say this with hesitation, but the principle is you pay more, you get more)

    But really, RED has to dig into their roots to find out what it is RED wants to do. The only real feedback here is --
    1. Don't leave us behind
    2. Do give us an upgrade that brings us upto PAR with the ALEXA crowd, so we don't have to constantly defend the platform (excluding prores - point people to weapon if they want this)

    OK, onwards with the script rewrite! Hope there'll be an upgrade decision for me to wrestle with in due time. I welcome it.
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  #177  
    Fire Chief Jarred Land's Avatar
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    Hey Jeff... module adapter isn't a possibility. It is the first thing we wanted to do but the signals are completely different, sent in a different way with different voltages and originating from different sources. It would of needed a FPGA to do even the basic conversions and the module would take alot of power and made everything bigger.. So the penalties were too much.

    Of course people can make " mechanical " adapters all day long for some things and 3rd party stuff.. I assume that is happening as we speak.
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  8. #178  
    Jim, Jarred, red team.
    You are social engineers.
    I'm no one of importance, but I understand and recognize a group of individuals whom create a ripple.
    That's the greatest compliment I can give.
    Congrats and thank you.
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  9. #179  
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    I think the "Weapon Raw" is a nice idea. Even though I am going to take the deal to go Weapon Magnesium current (sooner if indeed what is said that the 5000 Credit can be converted to payment of the package) , I think a Weapon Raw only would be great. Most probably redusers are looking for something like this:

    1- Raw only to cut costs on the prores encoding. While I would love to have 4k prores in camera, the truth is I have the Rocket X and with GPU's faster and faster, Productions can create proxies on the fly with a laptop, Thunderbolt enclosure and even apply a small look to them in Redcine X.

    2- Preserve the variable OLPF and Blackshading improvements, as well as new color science and optimisation of sensor. This is what most Red Epic Dragon users want! Also if possible the low light improvements as well!

    3- Make that camera eligible for future Vista Vision upgrade- not immediate, maybe a year from the CF. I'm going to Weapon with full confidence you all will keep me in there with you on the train. Would really like to keep my Weapon body for at least 4 or 5 years, current, and not look at other manufacturers cameras with envy :)
    Sérgio Perez

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    http://vimeo.com/user1503556

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  10. #180  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergio Perez View Post
    I think the "Weapon Raw" is a nice idea. Even though I am going to take the deal to go Weapon Magnesium current (sooner if indeed what is said that the 5000 Credit can be converted to payment of the package) , I think a Weapon Raw only would be great. Most probably redusers are looking for something like this:

    1- Raw only to cut costs on the prores encoding. While I would love to have 4k prores in camera, the truth is I have the Rocket X and with GPU's faster and faster, Productions can create proxies on the fly with a laptop, Thunderbolt enclosure and even apply a small look to them in Redcine X.

    2- Preserve the variable OLPF and Blackshading improvements, as well as new color science and optimisation of sensor. This is what most Red Epic Dragon users want! Also if possible the low light improvements as well!

    3- Make that camera eligible for future Vista Vision upgrade- not immediate, maybe a year from the CF. I'm going to Weapon with full confidence you all will keep me in there with you on the train. Would really like to keep my Weapon body for at least 4 or 5 years, current, and not look at other manufacturers cameras with envy :)
    Just a couple of thoughts to your points.

    1. Removing this will save just a small bit of cash. And there is no faster option than encoding ProRes on the fly. On set this is something that is asked for. A lot. And it's something other cameras RED cameras compete with also do.

    2. This costs money. Memory, processing power, and new hardware.

    3. This costs money as the 8K Dragon sensor will "need" a good amount of power under the hood to drive.

    The logic of just removing ProRes and thinking it's going to save you $15K is not what's going on here.

    Weapon is an entirely new internal body design. New processing, more memory, more everything.

    Time will tell and RED is listening to feedback. But making a Weapon minus ProRes is a bit odd and it won't save you a considerable amount of dough.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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