Thread: WEAPON - THE "WRONG" IDEA... (sanity check)

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  1. #1 WEAPON - THE "WRONG" IDEA... (sanity check) 
    Senior Member Peter Majtan's Avatar
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    Many folks seems to have the "wrong idea" that this is the current state of affairs...:



    In particular many are thinking that the 8K Vista Vision is an upgrade to "new" sensor - as in "next generation sensor" when taken in the context of Mysterium -> Mysterium X -> Dragon -> Dragon 8K Vista Vision - which is completely wrong.
    The reality (after you allow yourself to calm down) is...:



    The Weapon CF 8K Vista Vision is NOT a new generation sensor. Neither are the two 6K versions of the Weapon.
    THIS IS THE VERY SAME DRAGON SENSOR TECHNOLOGY. Period...
    Yes, the 8K version is offering a larger slice of the sensor wafer and so will possibly the W65 version that was hinted at...
    And yes - the Weapon brains do contain more powerful processing units inside the brain - with the CF version containing the most powerful one.
    But these are all part of the same DRAGON family - just like the Epic and Scarlet Dragons...

    Jarred made this very clear in few posts...:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Nope.. Epic and Scarlet are here to stay. Weapon just gets added to the top. The Dragon family is a family of 3 now. Best, Bester, and Bestist. ;)

    o yeah.. and there is more than one Weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Remember Weapon is still a Dragon... it sits at the top of the Dragon Family. Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon, Weapon Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    O yes... Dragons are not going anywhere. Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon still are and will continue to be in the lineup.
    He could not have been more clear about this then the above quoted posts - which by the way were posted long before NAB...

    What also seems to bother folks a lot is that the MG version of the Weapon is not upgradable to 8K Vista Vision.
    The reason behind it is simple - the MG brain simply does not have the processing power to handle 8K.
    This is clear from the spec differences between the two version.
    And once again - Jarred did mention this well in advance...:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    ...and this time the Carbon will actually do more.
    Now the interesting question that remains is whether RED will offer in the future upgrade path from MG Weapon to CF Weapon - which will open the path to the 8K Vista Vision.
    You will always be able to sell your MG Weapon and get the CF one in order to continue on this path...

    And finally - regardless of what the upgrade options are - the keyword is that these are "OPTIONS".
    You can chose what ever you want. Up until recently trade-ins and/or upgrades were unheard of in the film camera market.
    RED has changed the landscape here for all of us...

    I think the confusion comes from people's expectation that NAB will bring new generation technology. Instead we are presented with an "vertical" additions to the current Dragon family.
    Epic and Scarlet are and will continue to be a part of this family. Weapon is clearly the higher-end of the current line-up and therefore not for everyone.
    Even the current Scarlet Dragon (which is now the entry level to the RED lineup) is an amazing camera by any standards and can deliver top level quality imagery.
    The real question is - can you?
    Please do remember the amazing feature films shot on RED ONE!!! Not even the MX version of it...
    Scarlet Dragon can drift doughnuts around RED ONE...

    So take a chill-pill, crunch the numbers and decide with cool head...

    Peter


    *******************************************

    Update 1:

    In response to this...:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    Also, Magnesium Weapon appears at first glance to be EOL - is it upgradeable to Carbon? And later Vista?
    Jarred responded with this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    yes indeed.. Mg Weapon will be upgradable to both. It will cost more to go that way, but it will be an option.
    I have updated the second graphics above as well... ;o)

    *******************************************

    Update 2:

    The more processing power in the CF Weapon is needed for 8K - now confirmed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    The 8k Sensor needs the extra processing that the Carbon Weapon provides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Carbon is not just casing this time. It has faster chips in it, just like the Epic has faster chips than the Scarlet. That is why the Weapon Carbon can do 33x33x33 3D Luts vs the Weapon MG 17x17x17 3D luts, The Carbon can do 120fps PROres instead of Weapon MG 60fps PROres, and yes, Carbon can do 8k instead of the MG 6K.

    *******************************************

    Update 3:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Majtan View Post
    Jarred - since you are in the answering mood ;o) - can you confirm that all three cameras (Scarlet, Epic and Weapon Dragons) by being part of the same current sensor family - will be eligible to upgrade to the next sensor technology beyond Dragon in one way or another?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    And yes.... All Dragons will be able to advance to the next round.
    You don't need eyes to see, You need a vision!
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Terry VerHaar's Avatar
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    Well done, Peter!
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Milan S.'s Avatar
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    You forgot to put Epic MX ---> THE FUTURE

    And also Red One -----> THE FUTURE
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  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Majtan View Post
    Now the interesting question that remains is whether RED will offer in the future upgrade path from MG Weapon to CF Weapon - which will open the path to the 8K Vista Vision.
    You will always be able to sell your MG Weapon and get the CF one in order to continue on this path...

    And finally - regardless of what the upgrade options are - the keyword is that these are "OPTIONS".
    The only option being discussed today by Red, to keep obsolence obsolete, is the CF weapon. That's pretty much one option only.

    Mark Pugh LA, and AUS.

    www.markpughfilms.com
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Peter Majtan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan S. View Post
    You forgot to put Epic MX ---> THE FUTURE

    And also Red One -----> THE FUTURE
    Milan - by "the future" I meant upgrade options to the next generation of RED sensor technology. Epic (and Scarlet) MX upgrade was the end of the line for RED ONE. Similarly the Dragon upgrades are end of the line for MX.
    It goes without a saying that we will be able to continue to use our cameras well in to the future. If RED ONE is any indication of this - I expect at least another 5 years out of my Scarlet MX... ;o)

    Peter
    You don't need eyes to see, You need a vision!
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member Peter Majtan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Pugh View Post
    The only option being discussed today by Red, to keep obsolence obsolete, is the CF weapon. That's pretty much one option only.
    Then you are not reading this right. Please read again my OP - and in particular the quoted posts from Jarred.
    The CF weapon only allows you to go up vertically - to the 8K DRAGON version. This is not a new sensor technology - this is "just" the higher-end of the very same Dragon family - the current lineup...
    When the time comes to reveal the next generation sensor technology - what ever that might be - I am sure there will be upgrade path from the entire DRAGON family.
    THAT is obsolescence obsolete...

    Peter
    You don't need eyes to see, You need a vision!
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member Daniel Reed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Majtan View Post
    Many folks seems to have the "wrong idea" that this is the current state of affairs......

    So take a chill-pill, crunch the numbers and decide with cool head...

    Peter

    Nice write-up, thanks Peter.
    I always pass on good advice. It is the only thing to do with it. It is never of any use to oneself. -Oscar Wilde
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Milan S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Majtan View Post
    Milan - by "the future" I meant upgrade options to the next generation of RED sensor technology. Epic (and Scarlet) MX upgrade was the end of the line for RED ONE. Similarly the Dragon upgrades are end of the line for MX.
    It goes without a saying that we will be able to continue to use our cameras well in to the future. If RED ONE is any indication of this - I expect at least another 5 years out of my Scarlet MX... ;o)

    Peter

    I still have the Canon Super 8 camera from my college days and I can continue to use it well into the future, yes?

    There are many facets in this business, you are talking about only one of them. Not everybody can afford to sit on obsolete cameras.

    As soon as the Epic MX came out, none of my clients wanted the Red One. It sat unused for close to a year, I had to rent Epics until my turn came in Stage 3.
    The same will happen with Dragon/Weapon.
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  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Majtan View Post
    When the time comes to reveal the next generation sensor technology - what ever that might be - I am sure there will be upgrade path from the entire DRAGON family.
    THAT is obsolescence obsolete...

    Peter
    Now might be a good time to pull up those quotes to support what you're saying. None of Jarred's quotes you've mentioned allude to any upgrade path from Magnesium Weapon to the future beyond.

    Mark Pugh LA, and AUS.

    www.markpughfilms.com
    Dragon #292
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Stephen Lovett's Avatar
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    Peter has it essentially correct, this round wasn't about the sensor. Here is what Jarred said before. I'm confident all Dragon cameras will have a way forward to the next generation of sensors


    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land
    Weapon is a natural progression of our company going from sensor > body > sensor > body. Its the same path we have taken since day one. R1 came along, then we made the new MX sensor. Epic came along with a new body and used the same MX sensor. Then the Dragon sensor came along and it worked with the same body as Epic. Now there is a new body, Weapon, and it follows the same path. Then there will be a new sensor that comes next, and then a new body after that. Rinse and Repeat.
    Uroboros Films Turning Vision Into Reality www.uroborosfilms.com
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