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  1. #21  
    Senior Member jake blackstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    The F65 is the best camera around when only speaking image quality, everything else, not so much...
    Isn't image quality is what really counts and the main subject of this discussion?
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  2. #22  
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    Did not compare F65 to Dragon (but i shoot some F65 last year and yes it´s great) - but i am very happy with Dragon and everytime i shoot with i am looking forward to have the stuff in the color suite. Regarding low light, there are cameras that see more in the dark, but i am fine with the performance of Dragon. With DEB the "noise" is improved when you are forced to push
    i will post some night stuff 2morrow.
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member luigivaltulini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendes Nabil View Post
    With all the respect i have for Red, i don't think that the resolution is a valid argument, who can really tell the difference between a 6k image and a 4k one? As 90% of theaters (at least here in Paris) diffuse in 1080p.. People will talk about crop possibilities and downsampling quality over a native 1080p, let's be serious, and let's talk about "what really matters": color, dynamic range, low light capabilities, noise..

    Red Dragon is at her early age, i'm sure we will see some crazy improvements in the next few months, but to be honest, and i've already said it in other threads, no Dragon footage made me go crazy yet, in fact, all i've seen until now could have been made by the Mx sensor.. In term of color, creaminess and texture, Alexa is still above for me..


    For people who tried, what are the dragon low light capabilities vs Alexa?


    Let me get in my small town with 4 cinemas are equipped to 4k and you're in paris 1080?!?!?


    That's why maybe you do not see the difference ....
    Talk about foley color creaminess?! and then. if you ask someone to test some Dragon vs. Alexa low light!
    But then you've never used a Dragon!
    Excuse me, how do you say be better Alexa?
    I advise you to do as a first experiment Dragon vs. Alexa, take 2 people with brown hair in a dark room you do a good backlight, then go into a beautiful film equipped with a 4k projector, looks like your Alexa make a single block where you do not distinguished even a hair, while Dragon be all there .. this for the resolution since you say you not be important ...


    Please let me love Alexa, I 2 I had until the end of last year, but now I'm sorry but Dragon and especially on the higher resolution and color.


    I did a quick comparison only and only for the noise, between dragon and alexa new OLPF 800 iso.
    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...ks-great/page8


    just my thought
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  4. #24  
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    @ Mendes

    Dragon ... it´s just a small jpg (i will upload this later on my flickr), but this image was shot on friday in strasbourg in 6K WS, and i scaled it to 4K and saw it on a 4K screen. maybe Alexa is above for you, i see Dragon in front.
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  5. #25  
    Senior Member Bérenger Brillante's Avatar
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    Yes, most theater in Paris are 2k. Sadly, you have to pay extra to get 4k in selected theaters only . There are like 5 in the Paris area.

    Despite that, the difference can be seen. Especially in the front row to the middle of the screen for average viewer. And for experimented viewer, even in the last rows.
    I can spot 4k downsampled versus 2k HD, so I guess everyone here professional should be able to.
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  6. #26  
    Senior Member vincent kardasik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Reiff View Post
    @ Mendes

    Dragon ... it´s just a small jpg (i will upload this later on my flickr), but this image was shot on friday in strasbourg in 6K WS, and i scaled it to 4K and saw it on a 4K screen. maybe Alexa is above for you, i see Dragon in front.
    That's a sick shot Jan!

    I used to shoot a lot of action and for a year now, I'm shooting more and more fashion and commercial.
    I upgraded my Epic-M to Dragon for many reasons.
    First I wanted to try the new sensor extensively and not only on a rental period.
    Second, some of my clients were asking for it quite a lot... Even if most of them won't see any difference between Dragon and M-X.
    The day after I received my upgraded camera, I shot this: https://vimeo.com/97373933
    Laetitia, our model, has a really pale skin, our location has a lot of variation in terms of contrast and lightning, we shot the pool scene at mid-day and, for all that, the camera performed better than I hoped.
    Skin tones are definitely improved, latitude in the highlights helped me a lot to expose most of these shots then deal with them in post.
    2 months ago, I exposed at 800 iso when shooting outside, I now rate the camera and my light meter between 250 and 500 iso max.
    I shoot a lot of high-speed and I was limited by the compression allowed by my RedMag which is a bummer, I now have a 512GB Turbo SSD and it's definitely a plus.
    After my test shoot, I was thinking of uploading on Youtube a 4K version as the 1080p looks great but the original edit is super clean.
    I'm now waiting for Redcinex with DEB to be available to do that just because I want to check if there's a big difference with what we already released.
    I watched al these tests and I read a lot of posts on Reduser, I agree on some points but if you ask me, Dragon is better than MX, I can see these improvements every time I use the camera.
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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by vincent kardasik View Post
    That's a sick shot Jan!
    it is ;-)

    i can´t watch it enough on a 4K Screen, of course it is graded in Da Vinci, but the Raw of dragon delivers luxury data ... you want to touch the water - it´s ultra real ;-) will post a bigger one later the week ... nice screensaver heh heh
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  8. #28  
    Senior Member John Marchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake blackstone View Post
    F65 with 8k sensor is the only camera capable of producing a true 6k images. Just because Dragon produces bayered 6k image doesn't make it into a final 6k image. It's just not possible...
    F65 is not 8K. They count two staggered sensor rows at a time to arrive at 8k - the spec is 8192 x 2160 in a 17:9 aspect

    That's 8.8 MP green, 4.4 MP red, 4.4 MP blue
    Not true 4K per colour channel in the way they'd have you believe, and not capable of delivering 6K debayered either.

    Dragon 6K has 9.7 MP green, 4.85 MP red, 4.85 MP blue - 5K debayered, or 4K debayered in the S35 zone.

    Of course my monochrome Dragon is 6K no questions asked ;) hehe.
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member Christopher Probst's Avatar
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    Each of these cameras has its strengths and weeknesses. Our job is to figure that out and deliver the indended results to our clients. Is the F65 an 8K camera. No fucking way. And Sony's deliberate marketing strategy to obfuscate the truth about how their sensor functions just pisses me off. Does the F65 take fine pictures. Absolutely. Stand behind that and not blatently make up new math to bolster your resolution claims.

    Sergio, as for your original topic. I've been shooting on Dragons for over a year now since I first tested one of the prototypes in my junkyard spec shoot. Every iteration of the camera has its own particular nuances. I've had to continually re-evaluate my stance on how I treat the camera for each of these iterations. I don't mind doing that. Because EACH offered some unique properties. Dragon is an evolving platform. Have we seen the last of its features and performance characteristics, I don't think so.

    MOST people will agree that the first OLPF demonstrated that the ability to have clean high ISO exists in the sensor. The OLPF 2 has also shown how the highlight performance and color rendition can be maximized. I believe for anyone not content with the current offering, then having interchangeable OLPFs, or going back to the original OLPF will be a solution. I'm also interested in what this poses for future developments with the sensor. Maybe a middle-ground OLPF will be introduced, maybe pre-ND'd OLPFs will come out in each of these technologies... For me, that's appealing. If I'm going to be shooting days and days of bright exteriors, perhaps I want a OLPF2/ND.9 combo on my camera... If I'm doing tons of murky low-light city nighttime shots, perhaps OLPF 1 or a future version of that will be on my camera.

    I bought into Epics pretty early on in their release and saw that camera evolve and advance for 3 years or so into a robust workhouse with an image I constantly marveled at what I could do with. Dragon is no different. With the form factor, resolution, modularity, price, ect ect... I cannot complain one bit. Sure I'm adapting to each change and alteration of that platform, but then again, no one whined at Kodak for changing the characterists on a new film stock offering. AT LEAST these changes are somewhat OPTIONAL... Not many other cameras can offer that.
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  10. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Probst View Post
    Each of these cameras has its strengths and weeknesses. Our job is to figure that out and deliver the indended results to our clients. Is the F65 an 8K camera. No fucking way. And Sony's deliberate marketing strategy to obfuscate the truth about how their sensor functions just pisses me off. Does the F65 take fine pictures. Absolutely. Stand behind that and not blatently make up new math to bolster your resolution claims.
    But then doesn't it equally bother you that RED still claims Dragon is rated at 16.5+ stops and 2000ISO in the same way that Sony is saying their sensor is 8k? Sure, Sony's math may be *ahem* 'generous', but then again so is RED's (if 2.5 stops of DR is unseeable and 2-3 stops of gain is unusable due to noise).
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