Thread: "Dueling with DRAGON: RED's 6K Sensor Takes on Older MX in This EPIC Camera Shootout"

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  1. #51  
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    Either this is representative of every Dragon, or the Dragon sensors have a wide quality control tolerance.

    Generally speaking, it seems like some people are happy with their Dragon and some are really struggling with it. Could it be that the Dragon sensors are just all totally different? Could it be the OLPFs are all different? I've usually stayed relatively quiet on the forums with my Epic, because it worked excellently, I knew the limits and it was great. With Dragon it seems like everyone is working against some image quality issue or their camera is fine and they love it.

    Putting it bluntly, I thought I was buying a camera with a relatively clean 2000 ISO with 16.5 stops of dynamic range and it's apparent that's not what I was sold.

    That said, I'm not even that concerned about the red speck noise, they totally eliminated that nasty chunky blue channel noise from the Epic, which is great. Dragon still isn't 2000 as 800.

    The one test this didn't do was the Magenta Flare test, which I really wish it did. That has seriously changed the way I shoot backlit scenes.
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  2. #52  
    Senior Member NOSA OBAYIUWANA's Avatar
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    "Putting it bluntly, I thought I was buying a camera with a relatively clean 2000 ISO with 16.5 stops of dynamic range and it's apparent that's not what I was sold."

    Very good point.
    1. I don't think anyone here wants to give their Dragon back, it would just be nice to have a more realistic spec from the manufacturer.
    2. I think the advertised specs actually hurts Red more than it helps them. We don't buy these without testing and feedback from other colleagues. And the camera's capabilities become clear eventually.
    3. We all agree they are good cams. However, if you are shooting nights scenes with very little light, and are pushed on budget/time, its good to know what you are actually dealing with. Most people here know what it is like to be hired for a shoot without any time to test - these things do happen.
    4. I am a bit surprised that Red (who usually have excellent customer service) continue to push some of these specs that don't seem true. This is even more damaging to their reputation.
    • I have heard repeatedly that you either have to go with DR or Resolution. Has the science changed? Does anyone here know if Red have actually made a REAL breakthrough, or they are just balancing things differently?
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  3. #53  
    REDuser Sponsor Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    Well... If the truth is Alexa DR with 4x the resolution, that is a breakthrough.

    Warning: Matter of taste statement, but:
    As is the implied statement of his Alexa tests (and in sync with y opinion) the Alexa oversells the darks a bit. Looking better in the monitor when you shoot, than when you come home. Darks are a bit too bright.
    Matter-oftaste-warning hereby off.

    The big seller for me, also vs the Alexa, is color.
    Color and practical richness in the images.

    I wouldn't shoot new olpf at 3200/18:1 for practical use, though. I'd rather lower the resolution to 5k and lower the compression...

    The new OLPF changed moved the DR upwards. I and a few others are happy with that. The obvious tradeoff is that you have less under.

    As to MX vs Dragon NEW. I dunno. Haven't tested.
    main point is that they are different cams and should be lit/shot differently.
    To me the colors, richness and ability to handle "odd" light sources well has been the convincing point. Allways has been. still is.
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  4. #54  
    Senior Member NOSA OBAYIUWANA's Avatar
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    'Alexa oversells the darks a bit. Looking better in the monitor when you shoot, than when you come home. Darks are a bit too bright.'

    A very good point. I have noticed that the darks are a bit too bright.
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  5. #55  
    Senior Member Matt Ryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOSA OBAYIUWANA View Post
    'Alexa oversells the darks a bit. Looking better in the monitor when you shoot, than when you come home. Darks are a bit too bright.'

    A very good point. I have noticed that the darks are a bit too bright.
    You can always bring them down though... I'd rather have that than a "darker" low end that can't be brought up.
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  6. #56  
    Senior Member Alan Gordon's Avatar
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    I'll agree with everything you said Gunleik.

    But I'll also agree that Red needs to cut the crap on 16+ stops of DR. Sure you can get into matter of taste nonsense, but I think most people can agree there's a lot closer to 14 stops flat. Anything more than that is gravy for smooth roll offs. Which is still great.

    Unless Graeme comes up with some new algorithm to get more out of the sensor, Red needs to change their marketing material to 14 stops. It's misinformation.
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  7. #57  
    Senior Member NOSA OBAYIUWANA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
    I'll agree with everything you said Gunleik.

    But I'll also agree that Red needs to cut the crap on 16+ stops of DR. Sure you can get into matter of taste nonsense, but I think most people can agree there's a lot closer to 14 stops flat. Anything more than that is gravy for smooth roll offs. Which is still great.

    Unless Graeme comes up with some new algorithm to get more out of the sensor, Red needs to change their marketing material to 14 stops. It's misinformation.


    Alan, you are 100% right. And it does them no favours.
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  8. #58  
    Senior Member Shawn Nelson's Avatar
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    Personally I want clean iso2000 on the new OLPF, which is what I thought I was getting. Hopefully the new build will bring that.
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  9. #59  
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    Speculation, well it could be the prototype sensor and the mass production sensor differs in performance.

    I have ask this question since RED MX vs EPIC MX days (why EPIC is more noisy) but dead silence. So i dont expect this to have any clear answer as well.

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  10. #60  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Nelson View Post
    Personally I want clean iso2000 on the new OLPF, which is what I thought I was getting. Hopefully the new build will bring that.
    This and more DR where the reason i upgraded. 6k instead of 5k, don't care. The 2 main selling points turn out to be alot less then promised. And phil, jim said it the past iso 2000 would look as clean as iso800 on mx... It has been said by red. Lets hope new firmware and an updated olpf will solve the problem.
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