Thread: Red Dragon ISO Texture Versus Film Grain

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  1. #11  
    REDuser Sponsor Martin Stevens's Avatar
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    AWESOME Info and post Phil!

    Wow.... Love it.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Bob Gundu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Z View Post
    Thanks, Phil.

    BTW - I hate chroma noise .
    Luckily that's an easy fix in RCX using the Denoise function.
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  3. #13  
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    You know your stuff Phil and your posts are clever .

    One thing though is being forgotten when compare films vs any other digital camera , in my experience as colorist , FILM pretty much never disappoint , it """"always""" have a good pleasant image , any other digital camera i have seen so far produce results that varies BIG time , sometimes great nice and rich , sometimes very much washed out , sometimes big color casts hues etc.. (Especially in pure straight daylight (and i am talking well exposed off course ), i have worked on ALEXA material that right off the camera was really great but other material from the same shoot where Horrible (again exteriors daylight well exposed ) , Same is for Red and F55 (did not had much of experience with dragon though )

    on Film that never happen (unless is we'll over or well under exposed )

    i've just finished to grade a feature film that has been shot part on film and part on Alexa and i cannot tell you how easier was to grade the film ... the alexa material sometimes was easy too , but sometimes was ""a nightmare ""...

    so, to me feels that film response to various situations is much more organic and adaptive , while digital works well only under certain circumstances (image have to be naturally well contrasted + more)

    g
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Mark Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Is the film grain from 5207?
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  5. #15  
    Senior Member Bob Gundu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriele Turchi View Post
    You know your stuff Phil and your posts are clever .

    One thing though is being forgotten when compare films vs any other digital camera , in my experience as colorist , FILM pretty much never disappoint , it """"always""" have a good pleasant image , any other digital camera i have seen so far produce results that varies BIG time , sometimes great nice and rich , sometimes very much washed out , sometimes big color casts hues etc.. (Especially in pure straight daylight (and i am talking well exposed off course ), i have worked on ALEXA material that right off the camera was really great but other material from the same shoot where Horrible (again exteriors daylight well exposed ) , Same is for Red and F55 (did not had much of experience with dragon though )

    on Film that never happen (unless is we'll over or well under exposed )

    i've just finished to grade a feature film that has been shot part on film and part on Alexa and i cannot tell you how easier was to grade the film ... the alexa material sometimes was easy too , but sometimes was ""a nightmare ""...

    so, to me feels that film response to various situations is much more organic and adaptive , while digital works well only under certain circumstances (image have to be naturally well contrasted + more)

    g
    Great point Gabriele.
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  6. #16  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriele Turchi View Post
    You know your stuff Phil and your posts are clever .

    One thing though is being forgotten when compare films vs any other digital camera , in my experience as colorist , FILM pretty much never disappoint , it """"always""" have a good pleasant image , any other digital camera i have seen so far produce results that varies BIG time , sometimes great nice and rich , sometimes very much washed out , sometimes big color casts hues etc.. (Especially in pure straight daylight (and i am talking well exposed off course ), i have worked on ALEXA material that right off the camera was really great but other material from the same shoot where Horrible (again exteriors daylight well exposed ) , Same is for Red and F55 (did not had much of experience with dragon though )

    on Film that never happen (unless is we'll over or well under exposed )

    i've just finished to grade a feature film that has been shot part on film and part on Alexa and i cannot tell you how easier was to grade the film ... the alexa material sometimes was easy too , but sometimes was ""a nightmare ""...

    so, to me feels that film response to various situations is much more organic and adaptive , while digital works well only under certain circumstances (image have to be naturally well contrasted + more)

    Heh. While I agree that film was "always" pleasant. It was a big pain in the butt for me back when I was a colorist. Pushing out color wedges, bath/lab variance, NG prints, getting the damn lightbox calibrated to the projector and the monitor, calibrating the laser recorder, etc.....

    It was chaos. Chaos that got better over time, but I remember sitting in a theater about 27 miles from the studio and nearly pulling my hair out because what I saw on screen varied from what I had in a can back in the office.

    Digital cinema cameras and digital delivery potentially eliminates much of that chaos. Exposure can be precisely nailed in camera in a way it hasn't been able to before.

    Dragon rights a lot of the wrongs in my mind. You still need to shoot well, expose well, and take the appropriate steps when shooting.

    I do think some digital cinema cameras have made people rather reckless when it comes to exposure which leads to colorist's nightmares, but typically in experienced hands who know and understand the cameras you're hitting home runs each time at bat. The tools are there right in front of you to do so.




    Once more film folks get to testing and shooting Dragon I'm more and more curious what their thoughts are on it. I know from a couple folks and at least two large productions going on right now where it's been used in combination with film that they have been more or less happy. Those are still shooting though.

    I've done a fair chunk of tests now though and have been shooting "real stuff" too. I know what Dragon can do. I got strangely intimate with it. More so than Mysterium-X because I didn't hit as many walls and it made me want to look deeper.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  7. #17  
    Moderator David Battistella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gundu View Post
    Great point Gabriele.

    Maybe the DPs that shoot film are also just better. If you are rolling film everyone ups their game. I think each take matters just a bit more. I don't know If it's the cost or the importance or both, or maybe just film DPs know their shit.

    battistella
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Isaac Marchionna's Avatar
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    When that sound going through your camera resembles that of a cash register you tend to have great people behind the camera. Basically what David said.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Ketch Rossi's Avatar
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    Nicely done Phil, as always the time you take to do this test for us all to enjoy is always appreciated!!

    I have always been one that USED to go in WAY too deep technically in to both the Gear I used and especially what it did and how it did, especially so with LENSES...

    Since my near death experience I decided to change things and use my time for different things, as I was really just placing way too much importance in technical aspects and looks instead of other important things...

    Now don't give me wrong, and don't miss understand me here, I LOVE what you are doing for us all... I no longer go in to so deep, and just care about Storytelling more then anything, and the reason why, is because if I go back and try to do what you do in this tests, I'll simply never GET OUT and shoot, which obviously is not your case... :)

    Fact is that I amongst many here truly appreciate the time and work you put in to this detail tests and more time and work you put in actually posting it here for us all to see and take knowledge and notice of...

    For this, to show you my personal appreciation, the next time I am in town I'll buy you Dinner... ;)
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member Matt Ryan's Avatar
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    Great stuff Phil!

    Any chance to do a noise comparison to the other top dog digital cameras?
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