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  1. #1 DRAGON debayer options - Red Rocket-X hardware versus RCX-P software only 
    Senior Member Neil W. Smith's Avatar
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    Phil kindly gave us permission to take some of his .r3ds from 'It's Only Paint' through Red Rocket-X and compare the results to a software only debayer.

    So this i what I did:

    1) downloaded the five x 3 second .r3d clips from Phil's Vimeo account

    2) put the five clips into RCX-P b.21 and applied RedGamma3 and RedColor3 to all five clips ... no other adjustments made

    3) rendered out FULL debayer using RR-X

    4) clicked off the Rocket button and rendered out FULL debayer using software only

    No other differences between the two renders apart from the watermark to identify which is which.

    Check these out and let me know what differences you see .. please don't apply any "artistic improvements" ... just look at the images as they on the best screen/monitor you have and see what you can see:

    First version = FULL debayer using Red Rocket-X .... second version = FULL debayer using RC-P software only:

















    SPOILER - I'll post some of my prelim findings in the post below - don't read them until you've looked at the images first and come to your own conclusions.

    Neil
    Last edited by Neil W. Smith; 10-06-2013 at 10:39 PM. Reason: Re-arranged order of clips
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  2. #2 Preliminary thoughts on RR-X versus software only 
    Senior Member Neil W. Smith's Avatar
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    Looking at the images closely on a Sony BVM grading monitor I've come to the following initial conclusions:

    1) the image rendering quality of the RR-X card is way better than the old RR card - way better!

    2) on wide shots and mediums it's quite hard to see any significant difference in image quality between hardware and software potions - they're both great ... that might change on a large screen with a 4K projector

    3) on the close-ups is where you see the real difference and here is where the RR-X card takes the lead .... you see more detail in the fine hair around the model's head and eyes.

    So in terms of Overall Image Quality it's a close race but in the fine detail on CUs Red Rocket-X comes out ahead.

    But this is where it gets interesting:

    3) SPEED of renders! .... both for final renders and for checking out different options at FULL debayer ... no comparison ... if you have the need for speed, Red Rocket-X is the way to go (and I was running the software only renders on a beefy Mac Pro with a TITAN in the expansion chassis).

    Here's the numbers:

    RR-X FULL debayer of 5 x 3 second clips took 1 minute 52 seconds

    RCX-P software only FULL debayer took 7 minutes 7 seconds

    The other interesting thing is that the files rendered out by RR-X are all slightly larger than the software only versions ..... so maybe that's were the extra detail is coming from.

    Overall, very impressed with what RED have achieved with new Red Rocket-X card .... if you're shooting DRAGON you should have one of this in your system. Even EPIC 5K processing benefits from the quality and speed of the RR-X.

    Attached are some pixs taken with my iPhone showing the Stop Watch on my iPad and Phil's clips in RCX-P.

    Neil
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Matt Ryan's Avatar
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    Hey Neil, the embed codes looks a bit messed up. Only the first video is showing.
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  4. #4 To sharpen or not to sharpen - that is the question .... 
    Senior Member Neil W. Smith's Avatar
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    The other thing that's struck me while grading the .r3ds from Phil and Ketch's shoots is this - do we need to sharpen DRAGON footage in the final pass? ... we'd typically do that on EPIC and RED-MX shows but now I'm not so sure. Really like the look and the "feel' of the skin tones in DRAGON without any sharpening applied. The extra resolution gives such a delicate texture and granularity to the skin that I kinda think that leaving sharpening off is the way to go for certain looks.

    When you assess the images above bear in mind that no sharpening has been applied ... if you have a decent monitor look closely at the texture of the two women's faces ... really quite pleasing.

    Phil and Ketch, what's your view on the matter?

    Neil
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Johnny Friday's Avatar
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    Neil, very interesting find and information. NOW, what about renders out of FCPx?
    With a RR-x card
    Without a RR-x card

    .....this would be quite interesting to know if the detail issue that you mentioned will be better in FCPx with a RR-x card or the same if software debayer only....Basically how does using a RR card or RR-x card or NO card and FCPx affect the outputted file?

    OR---do you get better exports out of RCX pro with rocket-x VS FCPx with/without card?
    where would one benefit from the finer detail with the RR-x card and RCXpro.....---straight transcode, then drop in FCPx?

    Thanks for your findings Neil,
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  6. #6  
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    Am I to understand that a 15 second full-res debayer from 6k, at the 17:1 compression Phil used, took 1:52 with a RR-X card?
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  7. #7  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil W. Smith View Post
    The other thing that's struck me while grading the .r3ds from Phil and Ketch's shoots is this - do we need to sharpen DRAGON footage in the final pass?

    Phil and Ketch, what's your view on the matter?
    I just made this post regarding sharpening and finishing.

    For me personally it really depends on what you want your final image to look like. We're talking "end of the road" processing here really.

    If you want razor sharp that's an option, the samples I uploaded above aren't pushed that far though. Personally I think depending on the aesthetic of the motion picture you may want to not sharpen at all. I've come up with several variations on how to sharpen 6K between different workflows. They all produce a slightly different look and texture to the image.

    In my mind since there is so much flexibility in the "final draw" it's really going to be something that needs to be worked out on a case by case basis depending on the filmmakers, post folks, and project.

    Might even be something to work out on a shot by shot basis if we're talking something like a wide shot on a field of flowers and then cutting to an extreme close up on a face.

    Just depends.
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Eric Haase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe hedge View Post
    Am I to understand that a 15 second full-res debayer from 6k, at the 17:1 compression Phil used, took 1:52 with a RR-X card?

    Yeah this is what I am really surprised at if this is true. I;'m REALLY hoping there was some kind of other bottleneck. How do we go from near realtime transcoding of MX material with the old rocket to 2.5x realtime with RR-X which is supposed to be 3-5 times faster? I know it's 6K so a lot more information but I thought the new rocket would make up for it and at least put us back to realtime.
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member Neil W. Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    I just made this post regarding sharpening and finishing.

    For me personally it really depends on what you want your final image to look like. We're talking "end of the road" processing here really.

    If you want razor sharp that's an option, the samples I uploaded above aren't pushed that far though. Personally I think depending on the aesthetic of the motion picture you may want to not sharpen at all. I've come up with several variations on how to sharpen 6K between different workflows. They all produce a slightly different look and texture to the image.

    In my mind since there is so much flexibility in the "final draw" it's really going to be something that needs to be worked out on a case by case basis depending on the filmmakers, post folks, and project.

    Might even be something to work out on a shot by shot basis if we're talking something like a wide shot on a field of flowers and then cutting to an extreme close up on a face.

    Just depends.
    Great reply, Phil ... sorry I didn't see the posting on your thread but it looks like you were were already thinking about the same question ... and agree, the choice now with DRAGON is very much in the hands of the Director or DP to make at the last second when they go for final renders ... the point being that whereas with Red-MX and the old Rocket card you'd invariably go for sharpening you can now check things out quickly with RR-X and see what works best for the story line and the "look" you're going for - on a shot by shot basis.

    The other interesting thing that RR-X allows is the ability to work at FULL debayer quickly and efficiently ... so if you want to see exactly what's in the shot, click on FULL and play back from the Timeline or render out the clip you want to look at closely.

    I think the new mantra of LumaForge will be "waiting is not an option" ... let us provide you with the systems that allow you to work at the speed of creativity!

    Cheers,
    Neil
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Matt Ryan's Avatar
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    Video's are still not showing up....

    What was your export settings because I get better than realtime on 5K MX footage now with RR? How come it's slower with RR-x? Is it in an external enclosure?
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