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  1. #71  
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    Thanks guys!
    And keep "discussing"!
    Felipe Meneghel - Cinematographer - Brazil

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  2. #72  
    Senior Member Patrick Grossien's Avatar
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    Thank you Phil for taking the time and effort! The expanded notes really help !

    Really appreciate all your extensive work and openness ! Thank you!
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  3. #73  
    Hey Phil, the larger the sensor. The better the resolving power for all lenses across the board?
    Does it mean that for the anamorphic, it's possible wider apertures?
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  #74  
    Just remember guys, " Slight Vignette " means different things to different people. All lenses have transmission falloff from center to edge. Some have more , some have less. So when Phil says the Leica's vignette at 6K WS, his definition may be different from yours.

    For example, here is a Dragon with a dirty sensor and the Leica 25mm at 6K WS at about T32 ( or whatever it is right before the Leica's closing iris snaps shut ) pointing at a lightbox. Sure there is fall off to the corners, but you likely would never shoot at this stop ( the lenses dont even go past to T22 ) and the fall off is barely noticable. At 6K full frame, you will see some harder edges on some lenses in the corners if you close down as Phil said, But I just want to make sure when he says " Usable at 6K with slight vignette " the translation is such. Phil isn't technically wrong.. he is being super clinical ( as he should be).

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  5. #75  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Phil isn't technically wrong.. he is being super clinical ( as he should be).
    Yep, this is more or less a by the numbers test with no real creative interpretation. For me under most the most common shooting conditions the Leica Summilux-Cs are very usable lenses at Dragong's 6K Full that cover at the T Stops you'd likely be shooting at anyways.

    And these are actually currently my favorite super speeds out there for a variety of reasons. Mainly the character, resolving power, and somewhat miraculous coatings. Size too.


    Quote Originally Posted by charles lim yi yong View Post
    Hey Phil, the larger the sensor. The better the resolving power for all lenses across the board?
    Does it mean that for the anamorphic, it's possible wider apertures?
    Hi Charles. A few things to take note on in regards to true resolving power.

    Quick thing to keep in mine, for the immediate future when it comes to motion pictures we'll be creating a 4K master for a 4K delivery. That's going on industry wide at this point.

    Okay. Now onto the Dragon sensor.

    First up is the pixel size. Pixels are smaller on Dragon compared to Mysterium-X, so in terms of sensor "real estate" you get more pixels in the same physical area.

    The next thing to consider is that capturing at 6K, 5.5K, and 5K finished for a 4K deliverable is going to take advantage of a concept most call "super sampling". Meaning capturing at a higher resolution then your desired final output and scaling down to your desired output size. Various re-size and scaling methods yield different results, however all benefit by having more information. And we're not even getting into sharpening talk yet, which can extract even more detail.

    This is going to benefit all lenses really. Most modern optics from the last few decades resolve 75-200 line pairs per millimeter. Commonly 140-200LP/mm center frame, lower then 140LP/mm is considered fairly soft these days. Some lenses hold that 200LP/mm across the field, some soften up a bit. Most soften drastically towards the outer field of S35 coverage. This is pretty much how they have been designed and also some physical limitations behind the elements used.

    The advantage here is if you capture at 6K with say a lens that's in the 140LP/mm range and scale down to 4K for your finish you'll have a fairly impressive result right away.

    Great resolving lenses tend to be in the 200LP/mm and up. Depends on how your measure that really. When you see an "easy 200" you're looking at some extremely nice glass.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  6. #76  
    Senior Member Mike 'Fireman' Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    Jeff, I don't think the vII has any coverage differences vs the vI.

    Are you sure about the Tokina not covering 16mm at Full Frame? Maybe it vignettes and we haven't noticed? If you look at this piece here, the opening "wide" shot is the 11-16 on a 5D, whereas the rest of the piece is Red One MX with Ultraprimes.

    Either way. Point still stands. This "little powerhouse" as you call it (I like that!), should be TERRIFIC on Dragon.
    If you don't need to go quite so wide I'll keep banging my drum for the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8. Astonishing quality for a mass-produced lens at that price.

    And of course absolutely NO coverage issues on Dragon at 6K at any focal length...

    Mike
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  7. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    Jeff, I don't think the vII has any coverage differences vs the vI.

    Are you sure about the Tokina not covering 16mm at Full Frame? Maybe it vignettes and we haven't noticed? If you look at this piece here, the opening "wide" shot is the 11-16 on a 5D, whereas the rest of the piece is Red One MX with Ultraprimes.
    My Nikon mount versions -- I own two of them -- of the 11-16 both fall just shy of total coverage at 16mm on my D3X and D800. So I guess that's where I'm coming from with it. I'm also nitpicking -- it's mostly a portholing effect with noticeable falloff. And ever so slight start to vignette in the very tips of the corners. I also own the Duclos PL modded version of the lens, never have had it on a camera with a full-frame sensor. It's one of my all-time favorite lenses to shoot with!

    Either way. Point still stands. This "little powerhouse" as you call it (I like that!), should be TERRIFIC on Dragon.
    Totally agree! :)
    Last edited by Jeff Kilgroe; 08-05-2013 at 09:14 PM. Reason: ...portholing, not potholing. jeez...
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  8. #78  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike 'Fireman' Ross View Post
    If you don't need to go quite so wide I'll keep banging my drum for the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8. Astonishing quality for a mass-produced lens at that price.

    And of course absolutely NO coverage issues on Dragon at 6K at any focal length...

    Mike
    No doubt. Many people consider the Nikon 12-24 2.8 one of the great Full Frame wide-angles available. It's an absolute BEAST. The Tokina 11-16 is not as good, it's just a whole lot cheaper.

    Pound for pound, the Zeiss 15 2.8 and Nikon 12-24 2.8 are hard to beat if your looking for FF wides. The Zeiss 21 2.8 is a beast too, but not an ultrawide like the other two, so I personally categorize it in a separate "bucket".
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  9. #79  
    Senior Member Will Keir's Avatar
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    How many stops do we gain in the darks with Epic Dragon from Epic MX?

    I was excited to hear Mark comment that the Dragon shoots the image he sees with his eyes. That's why I signed on for this ride in 2005 and put money down in 2007. Both the R1 and Epic were not quite sensitive enough for me, which is why I turned to high speed lenses. Now I'm super badass at pulling the shallow depth of field work, unintended but useful.

    Is a Epic MX + Master Prime at T1.3 = Epic Dragon + Ultra Prime at T1.8 in terms of light sensitivity?


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    And remember we tested wide open and occasionally stopped down to T2.8 when those lenses were on the projector. Wide open the Leica's all projected the target "cleanly" with a bit of fall off.
    Will Keir
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  10. #80  
    Senior Member Will Keir's Avatar
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    Jarred,

    What are you shooting at T32!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    here is a Dragon with a dirty sensor and the Leica 25mm at 6K WS at about T32
    Will Keir
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