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View Full Version : RED 4k to Quantel iQ Pablo



Todd Jaspers
10-10-2008, 02:17 PM
Hey All, I am working with a startup that is going to be doing finishing/di/color grading for INDIE films, the facility is built around the Quantel 4k Pablo.

We also have a Kona3 that is going to be used for conforming RED media to then be moved over to the Quantel. Few things...

The Pablo can do 4k, but the storage is a big issue, so it is more advantageous to do grading/filmout in 2k.

If you are going to film out with the 2k or take it to HD, doesn't down-converting to 2k DPX make sense?? 2k is totally adequate when doing 35mm film out. The latitude will be fine, and we'll be able to media manage a lot better.

4k Acquisition makes sense, but finishing at 2k make just as much sense right??

I have a million things to figure out, but I would love to talk to anyone, since there are only like 3 Pablo iQ's on the west coast, gonna take the RED workflow through its faces soon..

Would love to get a discussion going..

-T

-T

David Didato
10-10-2008, 07:21 PM
would love to discuss with you as we are looking at acquiring a 4K pablo. PM me.

Charles Angus
10-10-2008, 11:19 PM
I'm not sure I understand what the KONA is for, are you laying off to tape before grading? Because that's probably not the best way to go...

2k DPX would probably be a good solution.

Chris Parker
10-11-2008, 09:35 AM
from what i hear, native .r3d support in the pablo is coming VERY SOON.....

Todd Jaspers
10-11-2008, 03:10 PM
I'm not sure I understand what the KONA is for, are you laying off to tape before grading? Because that's probably not the best way to go...

2k DPX would probably be a good solution.

No, hahaha. That would be a horrible idea, but no, Kona3 is for conforming. Wwe use that station to online RED files, either as high res HD or 2K. So we don't have the iQ bothered with needless stuff. iQ can conform doing AAF, but saves us a step when relinking the AAF, cause the media will then be local.

markh
11-17-2008, 02:09 AM
Hi Todd and Chris

Quantel does now support direct conform of red files - you don't need to go through any intermediate step.

There's a white paepr on the quantel website that goes through the details.

http://www.quantel.com/repository/files/whitepapers_red_qworkflownovember_14thfinal.pdf

Also you can drop me a line direct

mark.horton@quantel.com

Todd Jaspers
11-17-2008, 01:45 PM
Thanks Mark,

Couple Questions.

The Quality of the .r3d conform looks great, but it also looks like it is going to tie up a stations resources. A high end iQ does .r3d to DPX about 1/3 realtime.

Are you going to offer the ability to import .r3d on software based licenses? Say you have a Qeffects or Q IO license on a standard PC, so that PC can be importing .r3d and you don't have to have your main iQ bogged up with .r3d to DPX conforming??

Thanks.

markh
11-18-2008, 06:49 AM
Hi Todd

The way to this today without tying up a Pablo or iQ (or eQ) would be through a Quantel Max assist station on a genepool. Some folks are also thinking about dailes through Max.

However, the software idea is interesting too and something to think about.

Good discussions.

Ed van der Kruijssen
11-18-2008, 07:49 AM
Hi Mark,

You're starting to be a real Forum Tiger..

I have another question concerning importing R3D in IQ. If I read your whitepaper I get the impression that Quantel developed their own resizer. Is this resizer based on the SDK of RED and if so how can this make a difference with the one of RED based on the same SDK?

all the best

Ed

markh
11-18-2008, 09:15 AM
Hi Ed

It's our own resizer and there is another thread where this was discussed. One obvious thing you might want to do is resize to 2K or HD or SD either for the project itself or for dailes.
As you've probabaly already worked out, on a project you can also use resolution coexistence to mix other kinds of footage into a red project (or even mix different red footages on a timeline).

We must share a Duval sometime :-)

Todd Jaspers
11-18-2008, 09:49 AM
Hey Mark,

Genetic engineering is ridiculously expensive and not knowing exactly how much another Quantel MAX conforming station costs, I can only guess you are going to spend another Half Million dollars to streamline .R3D conforming.

Sounds interesting, but now I know why Plaster City is conforming .r3D on Assimilate Scratch Stations and then finishing on the iQ Pablo. A Scratch costs ~150k, and doing it the Quantel way, I can only guess, would be four times that..

If Quantel had a Software based Conforming licenses over a standard SAN, that sounds plausible and more cost effective.

-T

M Most
11-18-2008, 12:01 PM
Sounds interesting, but now I know why Plaster City is conforming .r3D on Assimilate Scratch Stations and then finishing on the iQ Pablo. A Scratch costs ~150k, and doing it the Quantel way, I can only guess, would be four times that..

I know Lucas will jump in here eventually, but the fact is that a Scratch system, even with all extensions and the fastest hardware currently available, doesn't cost anything even remotely close to $150K (maybe two of them do...). And a basic Scratch license, along with dual head and process capabilities, costs a small fraction of that. It is very economical to use Scratch as a conforming platform for projects that are color corrected on larger, more elaborate color correction devices like Pablo, Lustre, Resolve, and Baselight. In fact, my guess would be that the majority of Scratch licenses - if not the vast majority - are for exactly that (well, that and viewing VFX dailies - but I digress...). Along with Nucoda Data Conform, it is one of the most capable and cost effective conforming tools around.

I can't speak for Plaster City, but the fact is that there is no system - Scratch included - that can do a full debayer at 4K and play it in real time. One of the primary reasons to use Pablo for Red DI work is that it is one of the few that can, if properly configured, play uncompressed 4K material in real time. So by conforming in Scratch, and rendering to 4K DPX's, you get the best of both worlds - real time, no-render conforming in Scratch, followed by a Scratch render to 4K DPX files, followed by color correction in 4K in real time in Pablo - assuming you've got the time to do the render to 4K and the budget to pay for that time, as well as the 4K deliverable, of course. But in purely technical terms, it's a nice combination.

Ed van der Kruijssen
11-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Well because this tread started with a question about Quantel... With the new Quantel V4 software you can do the editing and compositing with the Red proxies within Final Cut Pro including multilayer and titling. Export the job as AAF and import the AAF in Quantel EQ,IQ or Pablo. Autoconform the R3D files in the Quantel system in the resolution you want 4K, 2K,HD,SD etc. And do the grading and final tuning in Quantel. With this new update you can do without Scratch.

You might have guessed I'm a Quantel IQ owner

Ed

Ed van der Kruijssen
11-18-2008, 02:33 PM
Because my Englih is a bit crappy hereby also a visual of the Quantel workflow.
I have seen demo's with Scratch and people tend to forget that you have to import the 3RD files into the Scratch system first. Also after finishing and grading you have to export to for example DPX what is a rather slow process as well. So the Scratch is not such a fast and fluent system as some people want us to believe.

http://www.bbp-video.nl/images/RED%20UNCOMPRESSED%20WORKFLOW%20engels.jpg

M Most
11-18-2008, 03:12 PM
I have seen demo's with Scratch and people tend to forget that you have to import the 3RD files into the Scratch system first. Also after finishing and grading you have to export to for example DPX what is a rather slow process as well. So the Scratch is not such a fast and fluent system as some people want us to believe.

There is no "import" process other than pointing the software at the proper directory. Loading of the R3d files is almost instantaneous. I've loaded 150 R3d files in less than 10 seconds. You then push play.

It is true, of course, that creating deliverables requires a render for anything other than HD video. That is true for any system at this point in time. However, if you are using a RedBoxx or Globalstor or Silverado system designed for it, you can play out an HD version - at 1920x1080, 2K debayer - in real time without rendering anything. So if you're not doing a film recording, it actually is a very, very fast and very fluent system if you've supplied it with the right hardware.

Lucas Wilson
11-18-2008, 03:55 PM
Because my Englih is a bit crappy hereby also a visual of the Quantel workflow.
I have seen demo's with Scratch and people tend to forget that you have to import the 3RD files into the Scratch system first. Also after finishing and grading you have to export to for example DPX what is a rather slow process as well. So the Scratch is not such a fast and fluent system as some people want us to believe.

Hi Ed,

Quantel is a great system, and being excited about it as a customer is cool. :) However, you do have some mistaken impressions about SCRATCH:

1) You do not have any kind of import/transcode with SCRATCH. Bringing in 1,000 R3D clips and having them immediately available for output takes about 10 seconds. SCRATCH treats R3D files the same way it does DPX, TIFF, etc. It creates pointers to the files and plays them back natively from their location on disk.

2) After finishing and grading, you do have to export DPX files... or output to video in realtime. This is different from Quantel how?

You are also leaving out a crucial step in your Quantel diagram - the fact that R3D must be imported to the Dylans/Gene Pool/etc. There is a step that says "AAF Conform" but you have left out the step where the R3D material has to be physically imported, which takes a bit of time - especially with a lot of material.

Mark H. or Damon H. - please jump in to clarify if I'm incorrect somehow!

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Ed van der Kruijssen
11-19-2008, 01:41 AM
This Tread started with a question about working with Quantel. Somehow high-end finishing and grading discussions on reduser always end with Scratch. Thats why as a Quantel user I felt it's good to respond especially because Quantel has nowadays a good workflow solution for RED R3D files.

1) I assume I had the wrong Scratch demonstrator during IBC but he explained that you can't use (firewire) back up hard discs with the R3D files directly when you start a session with Scratch and you first have to transfer all the necessary files to the system discs..which takes some time offcourse...It's great that Scratch can work natively with R3D. However during that same demonstration Scratch was'nt able to work with mixed resolutions - 3RD, DPX, Tiff on one timeline - Quantel can.

2) Quantel has to export DPX as well but does it much faster and more important it does this as a backgroundjob in the mean time you can start another edit session.
I noticed that Scratch is purely a EDL conforming and grading machine. Titling, compositing or keying or even editing is hardly possible.


You are right that you have to import 3RD files first. But the big (time) advantage is that you are able to finish the complete edit in Final Cut Pro including layers and titles audio and autoconform this session in the resolution you want in Quantel. In systems like Scratch you can do a simple EDL conform and have to bring in the titling, effects key. Which is time consuming as well.

Scratch is a wunderfull machine with a excellent price/quality performance but it has his limitations.
An investment in Quantel equipment is costly but we work already for four years with IQ at it will easily last for another 6 years. For example our Quantel Editbox is 14 years old now and is still up and running and making money every day.
Because you are able to spread out the costs of the initial investment over so many years expecially compare to other systems We found out that our hour rate for Quantel is really competitive with other cheaper systems.

Lucas Wilson
11-19-2008, 02:50 AM
1) I assume I had the wrong Scratch demonstrator during IBC but he explained that you can't use (firewire) back up hard discs with the R3D files directly when you start a session with Scratch and you first have to transfer all the necessary files to the system discs..which takes some time offcourse...It's great that Scratch can work natively with R3D. However during that same demonstration Scratch was'nt able to work with mixed resolutions - 3RD, DPX, Tiff on one timeline - Quantel can.

Not all demos are perfect. ;)

Plaster City did realtime HDCAM-SR dailies for Steven Soderbergh's "The Informant" directly from Firewire 800 drives. And mixed resolutions and mixed file formats are a regular part of quite a few SCRATCH users' daily lives. That is one of the stronger aspects of SCRATCH's capabilities.


2) Quantel has to export DPX as well but does it much faster and more important it does this as a backgroundjob in the mean time you can start another edit session.
I noticed that Scratch is purely a EDL conforming and grading machine. Titling, compositing or keying or even editing is hardly possible.


You are right that you have to import 3RD files first. But the big (time) advantage is that you are able to finish the complete edit in Final Cut Pro including layers and titles audio and autoconform this session in the resolution you want in Quantel. In systems like Scratch you can do a simple EDL conform and have to bring in the titling, effects key. Which is time consuming as well.

If you balance the total time required to import and export DPX files from a typical Quantel system versus the time required just to export files from SCRATCH, it is not as big a difference as you may think.

Your multi-layer conforming comments are accurate.

Please do not take my comments as anything other than trying to make sure that SCRATCH is portrayed accurately. A Quantel system is a great investment for the right facility. And I know many Henry systems that are still profitable today... not sure I can say that about too many other 12-year old computers!!!

Best,

Lucas

M Most
11-19-2008, 06:41 AM
And I know many Henry systems that are still profitable today... not sure I can say that about too many other 12-year old computers!!!


That's a whole 'nother topic, but my guess is that if you looked hard enough, you could probably find more than a couple of Avid 7.2 systems still running on Mac Quadras. And probably a few Onyxs still chugging along, too. Not to mention Axial editing systems....