PDA

View Full Version : Schoeps CMC4 vs CMC6 w/ MK41 capsule



zak forrest
07-31-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm looking into getting a Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK41 capsule.

I've found some used packages but they include the CMC4 and not the CMC6. Can someone explain the difference? Will this be fine? Would this be a mistake?

Bruce Allen
07-31-2008, 12:31 PM
CMC4 is T-power, not phantom power?

So yes it'd be a mistake.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce Allen
07-31-2008, 01:15 PM
MK41 is probably one of the most-used capsules for interior scenes. Why?
- sound is very natural
- doesn't have the problems shotguns have indoors due to colored eflections from walls, etc
- you can get it close to talent, and bg noise indoors is not extreme
- small (can be concealed in a plant pot if you're in a jam ;)

If you can get close with it, it can be wonderful outdoors too. But since it's a wider (hypercardioid) pattern, it lacks the reach of even a short shotgun. Also, it is sensitive to humidity, etc. Not as robust as a 416.

MK5 is even wider than the MK41 (cardioid vs hypercardiod) and doesn't have the reach you need for capturing dialogue.

By the way, there' nothing wrong with T-power except that it's becoming obsolete. It's more robust than phantom power in some ways in fact (RF interference etc).

BTW, if you want to use it without phantom power, you need the schoeps CMBI (battery pack phantom power / amp). Or an external phantom power box. CMC6 still needs phantom power.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Douglas Underdahl
07-31-2008, 01:28 PM
My sound guru John Gurrin turned me on to MBHO mics, which are copies of the Schoeps made by former Schoeps engineers, at half the price. Anyone used them? I like my 416 and would never sell it (makes women's voices sound wonderful and is indestructible) but I'd like something smaller and lighter. I'm thinking that small Sanken could be the ticket.

Bruce Allen
07-31-2008, 03:30 PM
Ah thanks bruce. I was under the impression that the CMC6 was the battery pack! So I need the CMBI... OK.. I would think the CMBI doesn't sound as nice as the CMC6 but still might be good enough..

I think it'd still sound great.



I talked to Location Sound and they discouraged me from mounting an MK41 on a red cam. Said that the MK41 was "waaay too sensitive" and would pick up the camera noise or a motor or my hands etc and isn't good unless its right up in the person's face... Is this true?

Yes, true for all sensitive, good mics IMHO. The RED fan is noisy, etc. If you can get the fan to turn off and have a good suspension system for mounting the mic maybe you'd be good?



Also keep in mind my plan to use the MK41 was for verite doc stuff mounted on the cam..

I refuse to believe what Location Sound has said and try it myself. More than anything I want a battery powered shotgun or shotgun esque mike to mount on the Red for doc stuff.. This seems like the best bet, unless there are other mikes out there? The ME64 was also recommended to me..

That mic's a cousin of the rather horrible ME66. It's also less directional than the Schoeps. Maybe they recommended it to you because they thought its sound would be so bad it'd mask any Red noises?

I don't know - could be wrong though.

Try both!

Personally if I were doing verite doc stuff and I was banned from having a sound person I'd add a figure-8 Schoeps as well and record MS stereo. But then I'd want a Mic Pre at least so I could monitor it.

If that combo was too bulky for me I'd ditch the Red and shoot with an EX1, since it's small, high quality and has working built-in phantom power. I wouldn't use some piece of crap Sennheiser K6 series mic just because I wanted to use a Red. But then I am crazy about sound (as you can probably tell by now ;)

Where are you? It says Los Angeles in your profile. I say just bring your Red over to one of the sound places in LA and have fun playing with mics to see what you like best?


My sound guru John Gurrin turned me on to MBHO mics, which are copies of the Schoeps made by former Schoeps engineers, at half the price. Anyone used them? I like my 416 and would never sell it (makes women's voices sound wonderful and is indestructible) but I'd like something smaller and lighter. I'm thinking that small Sanken could be the ticket.

Ooh, haven't heard of MBHO.

Agreed, a small Sanken could also be wonderful. Sankens are very cool and some people get great results in noisy interiors with them too...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

zak forrest
07-31-2008, 04:29 PM
If I use the Schoeps capsule and the CMBI battery powered amplifier, it will give me an unbalanced signal. Will this be a problem with the Red camera?

Stephen Pruitt
07-31-2008, 10:08 PM
Just buy a small external mixer and send a line-level signal into your RED. We are using the Sound Devices 442 and the Sound Devices 788T mixer/recorder. The 442 has phantom power in both T-format and normal 48V formats, so you can use the Schoeps T-powered mics. There are much less expensive and apparently very nice alternatives.

I second the opinions registered above, however, and, all other things being equal, I recommend you go with the CMC6 or the CMC5 (which ONLY uses 48V phantom power). As for capsules, we have the MK41, the MK2, and the MK4 (matched pairs of the latter two for stereo recording). The MK41 sounds fantastic as a boom mic. We are also using the Schoeps CMIT5-U for outdoor recording, and really like it, as well.

Just today, we used the Schoeps active cable to fly an MK41 over a table in a restaurant scene. Worked like champ. The CMC6 was 15 feet away and out of sight. It's a great feature to be able to split the capsule from the amplifier.

Unfortunately, none of these mics come cheap.

Good luck.

Stephen

Stephen Pruitt
07-31-2008, 11:37 PM
Just buy a small external mixer and send a line-level signal into your RED. We are using the Sound Devices 442 and the Sound Devices 788T mixer/recorder. The 442 has phantom power in both T-format and normal 48V formats, so you can use the Schoeps T-powered mics.

I second the opinions registered above, however, and, all other things being equal, I recommend you go with the CMC6 or the CMC5 (which ONLY uses 48V phantom power). As for capsules, we have the MK41, the MK2, and the MK4 (matched pairs of the latter two for stereo recording). The MK41 sounds fantastic as a boom mic. We are also using the Schoeps CMIT5-U for outdoor recording, and really like it, as well.

Just today, we used the Schoeps active cable to fly an MK41 over a table in a restaurant scene. Worked like champ. The CMC6 was 15 feet away and out of sight. It's a great feature to be able to split the capsule from the amplifier.

Unfortunately, none of these mics come cheap.

Good luck.

Stephen

Teddy Hallaron
08-02-2008, 08:35 AM
my 416 is T power - but no problem. PSC makes an in line barrel passive (no power) transformer that turns 48 volt phantom into 12 volt T power. I use it on my feature cart and in my ENG bag on all my T power. It's only 2 1/2 inches long and the same diameter as an XLR connector. Try any of the good sound stores, Location Sound, Trew Audio, Coffey Sound etc. to buy one.

Joe Pfeil
06-07-2011, 03:55 PM
I use the ME64 in conjunction with the 416 and have found the 64 to be useful indoors, but not amazing. It has a nice cardioid pattern and sounds pretty natural, but lacks presence and depth. It's just not that special of a mic.

The ME64 was also recommended to me..[/QUOTE]

Marc Wielage
06-11-2011, 11:01 PM
I talked to Location Sound and they discouraged me from mounting an MK41 on a red cam. Said that the MK41 was "waaay too sensitive" and would pick up the camera noise or a motor or my hands etc and isn't good unless its right up in the person's face... Is this true? Also keep in mind my plan to use the MK41 was for verite doc stuff mounted on the cam..

The LSC guys are being 100% honest and straightforward. In a run and gun situation like this, I think a CMC641 is a very bad choice as a camera-mounted mike. You want a Sennheiser 416 in a shockmount. Even then, the sound won't be as good as it would if you hired a sound man to just boom the whole thing. A Schoeps 641 is great if you can get it close to the subjects. (One could make an argument for the Schoeps CMIT shotgun, but it'll cost you twice as much as a 416.)

If you have an on-screen interviewer, you could always put a wireless mike on him and mount a receiver to the camera. But in a fast-moving doco situation, I think you need a wireless, a boom, and a bag mixer operated by somebody with experience. Documentaries are hard when you're only doing one of these jobs.

Craig Weeding
06-12-2011, 06:44 AM
Hi Zak

I can’t imagine a problem using CMBI with a RED. The length of the un-balanced cable from the CMBI to the RED will be less then 12" long. As long as you are not in an ultra Hi-RF environment there should be no problems. Make sure the cable is wired properly to the mini-XLR connector that plugs into the RED. I use the AES standard of pin 2 hot. The signal wire should go to pin 2 with the ground wire and shield connected to pin 1 and pin 3 (yes pin one and three should be shorted together when using an unbalanced source as the unused side of the balanced input needs to be reference to ground.)

Schoeps are great mics I have used the MK41 for 30 years and they are super sensitive. The main item to get is a good shock mount to limit handling noise from the camera or boom pole. We are very happy with the one we are currently using with our mics, it is the Rycote InVision Broadcast, very light weight and great isolation. http://www.rycote.com/products/invision_broadcast/

oleg kaizerman
06-12-2011, 09:42 AM
for camera mounting , you better look at at bp 4029 stereo mic , thats about the best bang for the buck for overall microphone , you can get stereo ambiance or use it as a regular shotgun mics for interviews .
it has quit good narrow pattern if you use its front capsule only , not ideal for interiors, but way useful then 416 and much cheaper .
for less money you waste on stupid schoeps logo , you can buy good stereo shotgun like bp-4029( 730 US) , short hyper cardioid like Audix sxci for interiors work ( 335) and g3 wireless ( 500) with good capsule from OST MICS ( 100) for run and gun stuff.
remember ,better have more useful tools then just one logo :-)
and yes i have them all in multiply numbers :-)

Steve Das
06-12-2011, 10:46 AM
...Ooh, haven't heard of MBHO.


here it is...http://www.mbho.de/t1.htm

Dave Blackham
06-12-2011, 12:18 PM
A couple of points here, Oleg is right the AT mics are good value and sound fine.

Id also second T power being good, its not a problem just make sure youve got something to power the mic with or an adaptor, its vey robust.

The least expensive mic I can think of is an older Sennheiser 435 ( its hyper cardioid and sits between a 405 and 415 in polar response so not as directional as a 416) They can be found for about $250 USD used. They are rare but very useful as a mic particularly on camera.

Also think about reliability, for example a 416 is very robust in hot cold and damp but it phases lots particularly on pans and is hopeless for any form of stereo. An MKH60 is not so robust in the heat and will not work they loose capsule out put for some inexplicable reason but do work again when cooled down. They are fine as an M mic in MS par for stereo.

If you want small then the Schoeps CCM range are excelent and sound more euphonic than the more neutral Sennheiser MKH mics. As Oleg says they have a very nice and expensive badge.

Other sound guys speak highly of the MBHO mics too but we dont have any so cant say first hand.